fourth batch:still crumbly but better

[dggriffi]

this is a 35/35/30% pko/co/oo at 45% water and 10% fatting.
i used soapcalc.net to figure.

On edit: I should also mention that this was a CPHP process that cooked for about 7 minutes. I stickblended to heavy trace then cooked until the ring migrated from the edge to the middle.
I took it off the heat and it still had a bit of zap. cooled it off so i could add the EO's and thats when it seems to get unworkable. I added Eucalyptus and Lemon when the final product dropped below 117 degrees.

I need to find a way to keep it workable in the cooler temps to insure that the EO's don't get flashed off. It seems like waiting for it to thicken before hitting the mold is causing the crumble. (or maybe not enough water)


all help is appreciated.

 

[dagmar88]

Why don't you try soaping at room temp?

 

[dggriffi]

Why don't you try soaping at room temp?

do you mean CP? if so, then the reason is that i am trying to capture as much of the EOs as possible. Lye will destroy the EO if added at the same time.

 

[carebear]

not all EOs are destroyed by CP - many survive just fine, and frankly citrus aren't very stable even in HP, IME. Remember, even finished soap is quite alkaline with a pH of about 10 (give or take).

Im confused by your statement " It seems like waiting for it to thicken before hitting the mold is causing the crumble." You want it get it into the mold in as fluid a state as possible. In fact, many add sodium lactate to help keep the soap fluid for longer.

You might also try a formula that's a little higher on liquid oils - just a thought.

 

[dggriffi]

not all EOs are destroyed by CP - many survive just fine, and frankly citrus aren't very stable even in HP, IME. Remember, even finished soap is quite alkaline with a pH of about 10 (give or take).

Im confused by your statement " It seems like waiting for it to thicken before hitting the mold is causing the crumble." You want it get it into the mold in as fluid a state as possible. In fact, many add sodium lactate to help keep the soap fluid for longer.

You might also try a formula that's a little higher on liquid oils - just a thought.

thanks for the tip. Do you have any thoughts on increasing the water by 10% from 38% and adding sugar? My whole shtick is EO soap so its important to me that i preserve as much as possible. Adding EO with active lye will surely destroy some of the EO at a faster rate by percentage than it does the fats as the triglycerides are very suited for grabbing all the hydroxides(1:3 molar) while i doubt the EO's are.

 

[dggriffi]

Im confused by your statement " It seems like waiting for it to thicken before hitting the mold is causing the crumble." You want it get it into the mold in as fluid a state as possible. In fact, many add sodium lactate to help keep the soap fluid for longer.

yeah, that was a misstype. i think my crumble comes from the fact that i wait for it to cool below 117 degrees before i mix in the EO and mold. I think this gives it a chance to partially harden which is causing the appearance. I need to find a way to keep it pliable longer.

 

[RikRaks]

I am new so don't really have to listen me.

But I do CPHP all the time..... Are you cooking at "false" trace....... Before I learned myself about trace I had a couple of crumbley batches. Now I try to stir down to make sure it is real trace, and sometime I am wrong.... I have learned if you stick blend too much too fast you'll get a false trace. Hence my question on the board. heehee

 

[dggriffi]

I am new so don't really have to listen me.

But I do CPHP all the time..... Are you cooking at "false" trace....... Before I learned myself about trace I had a couple of crumbley batches. Now I try to stir down to make sure it is real trace, and sometime I am wrong.... I have learned if you stick blend too much too fast you'll get a false trace. Hence my question on the board. heehee

so explain this false trace if you dont mind.

 

[montana]

my bad batches that look like that have been from adding lye that was TOO HOT to oils that were also hot. I'd try doing CPOP instead and see what the results are like. Soaps that are lye heavy also tend to crumble0

 

[dggriffi]

my bad batches that look like that have been from adding lye that was TOO HOT to oils that were also hot. I'd try doing CPOP instead and see what the results are like. Soaps that are lye heavy also tend to crumble0

this is very interesting. I tried cooling my lye water some this time and my results, while not complete, where much better.

 

[carebear]

not all EOs are destroyed by CP - many survive just fine, and frankly citrus aren't very stable even in HP, IME. Remember, even finished soap is quite alkaline with a pH of about 10 (give or take).

Im confused by your statement " It seems like waiting for it to thicken before hitting the mold is causing the crumble." You want it get it into the mold in as fluid a state as possible. In fact, many add sodium lactate to help keep the soap fluid for longer.

You might also try a formula that's a little higher on liquid oils - just a thought.

thanks for the tip. Do you have any thoughts on increasing the water by 10% from 38% and adding sugar? My whole shtick is EO soap so its important to me that i preserve as much as possible. Adding EO with active lye will surely destroy some of the EO at a faster rate by percentage than it does the fats as the triglycerides are very suited for grabbing all the hydroxides(1:3 molar) while i doubt the EO's are.

Increasing water may help, but then you get more shrinkage of your soap and can end up with warped bars. I've not found working with sugar did anything to help, but sodium lactate is extremely helpful. Adding EO with the lye may impact those EOs that are sensitive to the high pH, but my point is that not all are. And those that are sensitive even outside of the "active lye" state will still be in the high pH environment of a soap. Of course, you don't believe in that so I will stop giving you advice or information and end our discussion here and leave you to it. Good luck and all that.

 

[dggriffi]

not all EOs are destroyed by CP - many survive just fine, and frankly citrus aren't very stable even in HP, IME. Remember, even finished soap is quite alkaline with a pH of about 10 (give or take).

Im confused by your statement " It seems like waiting for it to thicken before hitting the mold is causing the crumble." You want it get it into the mold in as fluid a state as possible. In fact, many add sodium lactate to help keep the soap fluid for longer.

You might also try a formula that's a little higher on liquid oils - just a thought.

thanks for the tip. Do you have any thoughts on increasing the water by 10% from 38% and adding sugar? My whole shtick is EO soap so its important to me that i preserve as much as possible. Adding EO with active lye will surely destroy some of the EO at a faster rate by percentage than it does the fats as the triglycerides are very suited for grabbing all the hydroxides(1:3 molar) while i doubt the EO's are.

Increasing water may help, but then you get more shrinkage of your soap and can end up with warped bars. I've not found working with sugar did anything to help, but sodium lactate is extremely helpful. Adding EO with the lye may impact those EOs that are sensitive to the high pH, but my point is that not all are. And those that are sensitive even outside of the "active lye" state will still be in the high pH environment of a soap. Of course, you don't believe in that so I will stop giving you advice or information and end our discussion here and leave you to it. Good luck and all that.

thanks for your help and as usual, there is no reason to be rude.

 

[honor435]

I agree with the adding more oo, your cleansing numbers must be high with co and pk? ive done hp tons of times, i add eo or fo right after the cook, then plop in mold asap. Also, if you are doing hp, more oo makes it more pliable in the crock, you will have nice soap and it wont be crumbly, i promise. Heres my fav:
oo 37%
po 22%
pk 15%
co 15%
castor 10% it is very creamy and bubbly and will get hard, if you give it some time. Any more pk or co you could have a drying bar,

 

[Maria]

Try increasing the water slightly. I always add the fragrance or EO as soon as the soap is finished cooking. It is around 200 degrees and only the citrus scents smoke a little and not every time. If the soap is still not pliable enough to get into the mold easily, try mixing some aloe gel or glycerine in with the fragrance. I have no idea if sodium lactate works as I have never tried it. I add kefir for the lactic acid to several soaps. Because of the added liquid, they need to dry a bit longer than the ones without kefir.