hariskar
Member
When extra virgin oil is used which is the suggested super fat? I ask that because I read that extra virgin oil contains more unsaponifiables. So I wonder if the suggested superfat 5% should be lower.
Thank you!
Thank you!
Castile Bars & curing
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ngian
Well-Known Member
With which oil does EVOO have more unsaponifiables?
hariskar
Member
I don't know, I read it here in comment #2
I would still keep it at 5%
hariskar
Member
I wasn't very pleased with yesterdays results, so today I bought a stick blender and got a great trace within a few minutes. Again 100% EV olive oil (I use extra virgin because this is the only oil I have now), 5% SF and 35% H2O.
I improved the container, but have to improve it more.
Thank you for all replies!
I improved the container, but have to improve it more.
Thank you for all replies!
"...I read that extra virgin oil contains more unsaponifiables. So I wonder if the suggested superfat 5% should be lower...."
The unsaponifiable content in any fat will cause the measured saponification value to be lower than the theoretially "ideal" sap value. You don't need to compensate for the unsaponifiables by adjusting the superfat %, because that's already been done simply by measuring the sap value of real samples. Set the superfat (aka lye discount) at the % you want, and soap as usual.
An extreme example is jojoba with a measured NaOH sap value of 0.068 due to its very high unsaponifiable content. That sap value is tiny compared to the much higher sap value of common soaping fats.
All online soap calcs use the measured sap values and all published sap values are measured values as well. You will only encounter a theoretically ideal sap value if you choose to calculate it using the chemical formulae for your fat.
As far as whether virgin olive oil has more unsaponifiables than pomice olive ... the NaOH sap value in Soapcalc is 0.135 for virgin olive and 0.134 for pomace. This suggests there is a slightly higher unsaponifiable content in the pomace. But I'm no expert on this; I'm just looking at the Soapcalc data and drawing a conclusion.
Edit: And I'm also seeing this trend on other websites: Double the allowable unsaponifiable content for pomace vs other grades of olive oil per US standards (http://www.oliveoilsource.com/page/product-grade-definitions and http://cesonoma.ucanr.edu/files/27262.pdf). Higher sap value listed for non-pomace grades of olive oil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil).
The unsaponifiable content in any fat will cause the measured saponification value to be lower than the theoretially "ideal" sap value. You don't need to compensate for the unsaponifiables by adjusting the superfat %, because that's already been done simply by measuring the sap value of real samples. Set the superfat (aka lye discount) at the % you want, and soap as usual.
An extreme example is jojoba with a measured NaOH sap value of 0.068 due to its very high unsaponifiable content. That sap value is tiny compared to the much higher sap value of common soaping fats.
All online soap calcs use the measured sap values and all published sap values are measured values as well. You will only encounter a theoretically ideal sap value if you choose to calculate it using the chemical formulae for your fat.
As far as whether virgin olive oil has more unsaponifiables than pomice olive ... the NaOH sap value in Soapcalc is 0.135 for virgin olive and 0.134 for pomace. This suggests there is a slightly higher unsaponifiable content in the pomace. But I'm no expert on this; I'm just looking at the Soapcalc data and drawing a conclusion.
Edit: And I'm also seeing this trend on other websites: Double the allowable unsaponifiable content for pomace vs other grades of olive oil per US standards (http://www.oliveoilsource.com/page/product-grade-definitions and http://cesonoma.ucanr.edu/files/27262.pdf). Higher sap value listed for non-pomace grades of olive oil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil).
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hariskar
Member
After I did my 3rd batch I realized that I put the 1st and 2nd batch in the containers before they reached trace (but then I thought they had).
Do you think they will be usable?
Do you think they will be usable?
It depends
Before trace happens comes a stage known as 'emulsion' - the lye solution and oils are mixed to the point where they won't (usually) separate back out to being oils and lye solution, but will stay mixed together. This allows saponification to get underway.
It's easier to recognize trace at one of its various stages, so most people mix until trace. Some mix until emulsion, especially if they plan on doing a whole lot of swirling.
So, you might be lucky - if it is not turning back in to separate oils and separate lye in your mould then it will be fine
Before trace happens comes a stage known as 'emulsion' - the lye solution and oils are mixed to the point where they won't (usually) separate back out to being oils and lye solution, but will stay mixed together. This allows saponification to get underway.
It's easier to recognize trace at one of its various stages, so most people mix until trace. Some mix until emulsion, especially if they plan on doing a whole lot of swirling.
So, you might be lucky - if it is not turning back in to separate oils and separate lye in your mould then it will be fine
ngian
Well-Known Member
Trace can be categorized from light to thick. If after a few hours/days you have in the molds only water and olive oil the you might not have reached trace at all in the first place.
Read more on this article "All about trace".
As I can see from the second picture, trace is visible on the top of the soap surface in the mold. If your first and second soap are hard inside the molds then I think you are in the right way.
I'm also writing down a nice description of when trace is starting, from a book I've read:
If the admins think that the above should be deleted for copyright issues, then go on and delete the quote.
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hariskar
Member
Thank you!
The photo in post #17 shows my 1st effort for which I have doubts and post #25 shows a picture with very good trace.
There is no oil-lye separation, so I will wait.
The photo in post #17 shows my 1st effort for which I have doubts and post #25 shows a picture with very good trace.
There is no oil-lye separation, so I will wait.
Yes, be careful about getting good trace. With 35% water, you are close to the point where a 100% olive oil batch will want to separate. Even if you pour it at trace, there is a chance of some difference between the soap at the top and the bottom or the mold. You are safer using something like 25% water, or set the lye concentration to 33%.
ngian
Well-Known Member
Along with the info that topofmurrayhill gave you, here is a good article that explains when, how much and why you should compute lye concentration in a recipe instead of water as a percentage of oils.
The importance of lye concentration
Another thing to be careful also is that pomace olive oil (μούργα) traces much faster than virgin olive oil, as topofmurrayhill has explained this phenomenon and it is for the free fatty acids that are in pomace that saponify much faster.
The importance of lye concentration
Another thing to be careful also is that pomace olive oil (μούργα) traces much faster than virgin olive oil, as topofmurrayhill has explained this phenomenon and it is for the free fatty acids that are in pomace that saponify much faster.
hariskar
Member
Is 30% lye concentration good for this recipe?
It would be a pretty safe recipe with various concentrations
ngian
Well-Known Member
This is a very general question. It all depends on what else will you be using/doing (coloring with swirls, using additives like milk and honey, combining oils and lye on high or low temperature, using Ethereal / Fragrance Oil that accelerate).
It is the same with asking: is it safe to drive with 140km/h? (with what type of vehicle, in which road, how many people are with you...)
You can type the specific recipe in soapcalc and see the Sat : Unsat Ratio that gives you. Using Palm50%, Olive30% and Coconut20% the ratio is 47 : 53.
Then going to the table that you can find in the link I gave you, Roberto Akira suggests to use around 32% lye concentration. But then there are other things that influence the suggested lye concentration such as if someone is a begginer, if you want to do swirls and so on.
For beginners it is suggested to use 30% so I guess it is a good ratio to start with if there will not be any other things that will effect the lye concentration needed.
Nikos
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I don't think there is any one "perfect" lye solution concentration for all recipes all of the time. You have to know your recipe and choose a reasonable lye concentration. Some lye solution concentrations will work better for some recipes than others. I'm finding differences in how my soap batter behaves with just a 1% or 2% change in lye solution concentration, so you don't need to make a big change in the concentration to get distinct differences in behavior from a given recipe.
If we're talking about a 100% olive oil recipe that will saponify slowly, I would use anywhere from 33% to 40% lye solution concentration (this is NOT water as % of oils). I would use whatever lye solution concentration I felt most comfortable using within that range -- some people are uncomfortable with 40%, but okay with 33%. Less water = faster trace time. Experienced soapers even use up to 50% lye concentration, but I don't recommend that for a beginner.
For a recipe with a balanced blend of fats, I might use anywhere from 30% to 33% lye concentration. Higher concentration means less time to trace, all other things being equal. That's fine if I'm making an uncolored or solid color bar and want to "get 'er done". Lower concentration means more time to trace, and that works better if I want more time to do whatever fancy decorative work I am able to do.
Lower concentration also means a greater tendency for the soap to go into gel (and possibly overheat) on its own without additional heat. There is also more tendency for the soap to show streaking or mottling. If any given recipe traces too fast, I might try reducing the lye concentration by 1% or 2% and see if I get more time before the soap comes to trace. If the soap shows streaking and mottling and I don't like that or if it tends to gel and overheat easily, I might increase the concentration by 1% or 2% and see how that works.
For a 100% coconut oil soap that saponifies quickly, a 28% to 30% lye concentration would be fine.
That said, I seldom use "full water" (about 28% lye concentration) because the soap batter may not stay emulsified with that much water, especially for recipes with liquid oils (vs. lard, tallow, palm, PKO, and/or coconut). If the emulsion "breaks", the batter will separate in the mold into fat and lye layers. That is not a good thing. Also a high-water soap can tend to be too soft when I want to unmold at 12-24 hours, again this is more likely if the recipe contains liquid oils.
Related threads: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=54095 and http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53642
If we're talking about a 100% olive oil recipe that will saponify slowly, I would use anywhere from 33% to 40% lye solution concentration (this is NOT water as % of oils). I would use whatever lye solution concentration I felt most comfortable using within that range -- some people are uncomfortable with 40%, but okay with 33%. Less water = faster trace time. Experienced soapers even use up to 50% lye concentration, but I don't recommend that for a beginner.
For a recipe with a balanced blend of fats, I might use anywhere from 30% to 33% lye concentration. Higher concentration means less time to trace, all other things being equal. That's fine if I'm making an uncolored or solid color bar and want to "get 'er done". Lower concentration means more time to trace, and that works better if I want more time to do whatever fancy decorative work I am able to do.
Lower concentration also means a greater tendency for the soap to go into gel (and possibly overheat) on its own without additional heat. There is also more tendency for the soap to show streaking or mottling. If any given recipe traces too fast, I might try reducing the lye concentration by 1% or 2% and see if I get more time before the soap comes to trace. If the soap shows streaking and mottling and I don't like that or if it tends to gel and overheat easily, I might increase the concentration by 1% or 2% and see how that works.
For a 100% coconut oil soap that saponifies quickly, a 28% to 30% lye concentration would be fine.
That said, I seldom use "full water" (about 28% lye concentration) because the soap batter may not stay emulsified with that much water, especially for recipes with liquid oils (vs. lard, tallow, palm, PKO, and/or coconut). If the emulsion "breaks", the batter will separate in the mold into fat and lye layers. That is not a good thing. Also a high-water soap can tend to be too soft when I want to unmold at 12-24 hours, again this is more likely if the recipe contains liquid oils.
Related threads: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=54095 and http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53642
hariskar
Member
Thank you!
I started using this guide for choosing the correct lye concentrations.
I unmolded all my soaps without problems. I put the 2 containers of post #17 in the fridge today for some hours and then taking out the soap was very easy. So till now everything is OK!
In the next batches I will add some essential oil.
Also I will make shaving soap and toothpaste in the next days.
I started using this guide for choosing the correct lye concentrations.
I unmolded all my soaps without problems. I put the 2 containers of post #17 in the fridge today for some hours and then taking out the soap was very easy. So till now everything is OK!
In the next batches I will add some essential oil.
Also I will make shaving soap and toothpaste in the next days.
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hariskar
Member
If I put 10ml Jasmine essential oil in 600gr oils doesn't it affect the super fat (which was 5%)?
FlybyStardancer
Well-Known Member
No, adding an essential oil (which should always be measured by weight!) will not affect the superfat. Superfat refers to the unsaponified oils that are made up of fatty acids. Essential oils do not have any fatty acids.
hariskar
Member
But since it is an oil doesn't it affect how greasy you feel your hands after washing? If everything else is the same, wouldn't the soap with essential oil result in more greasy hands than the same soap without essential oil?
Thank you!
Thank you!
