# Brambleberry - Total Batch Weight instead of PPO question...

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#### srez

Supporting Member
HI All,

I made a batch last night of Oatmeal Milk and Honey from Brambleberry and calculated the amount used for PPO (like most other FO companies) instead of Total Batch Weight which Brambleberry recommends. The max usage is 1.95%.

My question is, with other companies like Nurture Soap, Nature's Garden etc ... where they suggest calculating the FO for PPO... Could we also calculate for Total Batch Weight instead?

Or is there a reason why we should not?

Thanks,

Steve

#### Zany_in_CO

##### Saponifier
Total Batch Weight which Brambleberry recommends. The max usage is 1.95%.
Hmmm. That's highly unusual. I'm wondering where you got that idea? According to their Fragrance Calculator, the FO rate is calculated on the weight of oils.

#### DeeAnna

##### Well-Known Member
Within the handcrafted soap making community, ingredients are often measured on the basis of "ppo" -- in other words based on the weight of fat in a soap batch. I think the reason why soap makers use this basis is because bar soap loses water due to evaporation, while the weight of fat in the soap remains a constant.

Pretty much everyone else in the cosmetics world measures ingredients as a percentage of the total batch weight -- the weight of all the finished product. The IFRA guidelines are on this basis.

The amount of fragrance you use in your soap should be within the IFRA limits at the time the consumer receives the soap. The weight of ingredients to make a batch of soap is always going to be more than the weight of cured soap that the consumer receives.

If you calculate fragrance based on the starting total batch weight and you use the maximum dosage that IFRA recommends, the fragrance in the cured soap could exceed the IFRA safety limit when a consumer receives it.

I estimate there is roughly a 10% loss of weight by the time a soap bar is cured (4-8 weeks after it is cut). If you want to calculate the amount of fragrance based on the final cured batch weight, you should include that weight loss into your calculations.

I suspect this weight loss during cure is one reason why many ingredients are based on the total fat weight (ppo) rather than the final cured weight. The weight of oils is a constant value and easy to use in calculations. There is nothing wrong with calculating the amount of fragrance on the total oil weight (aka ppo). It is far better to err on the side of using less fragrance rather than risk overdoing it.

#### srez

Supporting Member

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#### Zany_in_CO

##### Saponifier
Hi @Zany_in_CO
Sorry about that. Here it is.
Hmmm. That's a stumper. I think I would ask BB about that. That's where the problem lies.

You're welcome.

#### A-Polly

Supporting Member
I've tended toward total batch weight for calculations, except for the liquid — for that I add only 10% of the amount. This idea originally came from an article I read when researching IFRA several years ago, but I managed to misplace my notes and haven't been able to locate the source again! However, using only the weight of oils simplifies calculating, and then, as DeeAnna said, you know for sure that your soap won't exceed the limit. I don't go over 5 percent or so even if the IFRA limit is much higher.

BTW, BB's Oatmeal Milk & Honey FO had a higher max rate until IFRA 49 & 50 came out. I wonder if the manufacturer is working on a new formulation.

#### cmzaha

Supporting Member
HI All,

I made a batch last night of Oatmeal Milk and Honey from Brambleberry and calculated the amount used for PPO (like most other FO companies) instead of Total Batch Weight which Brambleberry recommends. The max usage is 1.95%.

My question is, with other companies like Nurture Soap, Nature's Garden etc ... where they suggest calculating the FO for PPO... Could we also calculate for Total Batch Weight instead?

Or is there a reason why we should not?

Thanks,

Steve
The IFRA shows 5% on B&B site. I think B&B needs to do a bit of cleaning up on their site. I downloaded the IFRA sheet for the Oatmeal and Honey FO which states 5% for Cat 9. I used to use that FO at 6% ppo with no issues.

#### A-Polly

Supporting Member
The IFRA shows 5% on B&B site. I think B&B needs to do a bit of cleaning up on their site. I downloaded the IFRA sheet for the Oatmeal and Honey FO which states 5% for Cat 9. I used to use that FO at 6% ppo with no issues.
They do show both the IFRA 48 and 49, listed separately — could you have clicked accidentally on the older one? The IFRA 49 showed 1.95%, when I downloaded the sheet before posting earlier. And same here — I used to use at least 5% of that one, too.

#### linne1gi

Supporting Member
Hmmm. That's highly unusual. I'm wondering where you got that idea? According to their Fragrance Calculator, the FO rate is calculated on the weight of oils.

Taken from the BrambleBerry site:
One of the best features on the Bramble Berry site is the Fragrance Calculator. It’s a handy tool that takes the guesswork out of soaping and gives you complete control over your recipes. Read on to learn how to make the Fragrance Calculator work for you.

ONE: Open the Bramble Berry Fragrance Calculator. It's on the homepage, as well as the calculator icon in the top right-hand corner. The calculator has options for lotion, liquid soap, cold process soap, melt and pour soap, salts and scrubs, rebatch soap, candles, and shampoo and conditioner.

TWO: Start by typing in the fragrance you’re using and then click “Next.” In this example we’re using Moonstone Fragrance Oil.

THREE: Select what you’re making, the weight, and the unit of measurement. When making cold process, enter the total weight of your soap, including oils, liquid, and lye. Our example is 16 ounces of cold process soap. Click “Next.”

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