Avoiding Seize-ure: Process and/or Temperature?

[Todd_in_Minnesota]

Sorry for the long, technical post, but I'm struggling with understanding what causes seize; hoping to benefit from the accumulated wisdom of this forum.
(My most recent batch went to immediate applesauce before I'd even dipped a stirring spoon in.)

And... I ran out of lye, so I have to stop soaping and start thinking for a while.

Two elements occur to me that could impact trace speed:
1. mixing temperature
2. mixing process

1. Temperature
I've been mixing lye water with the melted oils at between 105F and 120F, depending on how impatient I feel. I know cooler could lead to oils hardening rather than really tracing (but I'm not sure what 'cooler' really means in this context), but I don't know what other ways temperature contributes to trace-speed. What's the conventional wisdom around this?
Does false trace occur at a specific temperature? Does high temperature cause faster/slower trace? What temperature do you mix at, and do you pay attention to this? Is it important?

2. Process
My original process was:
- pre-pour each color into it's color-mixing bowl (using liquid HP colorant I got from a local craft store)
- mix oils/lye water at a similar temp, stir until lightest trace
- add essential oils, stir until evenly dispersed
- divide glop into color-mixing bowls
- continue mixing each color individually until desired trace
- pour color batches into mold

Recently I've started using oxide pigments that need to be in suspension to assure even distribution, so I changed my process to:
- pre-measure each color powder into it's color-mixing bowl
- add some liquid oil from the recipe (like avocado or olive) to each color-mixing bowl and stir the oxide powder into suspension
- mix remaining oils/lye water at a similar temp, stir until lightest trace
- add essential oils, stir until evenly dispersed
- divide glop into color-mixing bowls, which adds that liquid oil back into the mix to complete the recipe
- continue mixing each color individually until desired trace
- pour color batches into mold

Does either of these processes sound anything like what y'all are doing?
Am I missing something obvious or doing something stupid?
What are some better ways to do this? I'm very open to experience!

Again, sorry for the long boring post, but I get the feeling I need a reality check.

Thanks in advance!
Todd_in_Unsure-a-sota

 

[Donna]

Hi Todd,
This is a quick answer to some of your questions as I'm supposed to be cooking for Thanksgiving, so I'm playing hooky. I'm sure someone will address all of your questions, but usually the higher the temp. the faster the mixture will trace. I usually blend oils and lye mixture anywhere from 110 degrees to 80 degrees, depending on whether I want to have time to play (swirl, etc) or not. Some people on this forum soap at room temps. and have good luck.
I essentially follow your #2 process, but add a small amount of my oils to my colors before adding the full amount. It makes mixing a little easier.
Have you considered that your EO's may be contributing to the seizing? You may want to check out the Scent Review Board for hints of the how fragrances behave.
Must scoot....duty calls, and calls and ......calls! Hope this helps a bit.

 

[CSL]

As far as I understand, seizure is caused by the reaction happening so fast that it thickens the batter, much like when saponification is complete and you have a solid bar instead of liquid. However, it happens too fast, therefore unevenly, so some components of the mix are not equally distributed throughout. This is also why continuing to mix the batter once ricing has occurred sometimes makes it better because components are given the chance to be evenly distributed throughout the batter.
So from a chemistry point of view, higher temperature means faster reaction because of the higher rate of movement of molecules, so they meet their partner quicker. (ie an oil molecule finding a lye molecule and making a soapy molecule). Temperature is just one of the factors that contribute to increased rate of reaction. The chemical make-up of the substance can also contribute to increased rate of reaction, ie how open it is to bonding/reacting. Substances containing vanillin (fragrance oils like vanilla (obv), chocolate, etc) are particularly happy to react and will do so with great gusto, without allowing you very much time. Quite commonly, your eo or fo is the culprit in seizing.

If you know you are working with a scent likely to cause seizing or ricing, things that will help are:
1. working at a lower temperature, maybe 95F?
2. keep your water to lye ratio at 2:1 or higher, maybe 2.5:1
3. be prepared not to do intricate swirl work (I know it's not ideal)
4. add your scent at the last possible minute. Maybe that means dividing it proportionally between your colour pots and giving them all one good quick mix.

Seizing is rubbish. I use a method similar to your second one, except I mix oxides/mica with a little glycerin instead. Yesterday I had a batch that did some epic ricing, even though I've made the exact same thing before and didn't change anything. It's like they have wee brains of their own.

 

[judymoody]

I pretty much do what you do except that I premix my oxides in a bit of olive oil so they are a kind of thick slurry. They blend pretty easily that way.

I soap pretty warm - at least 110 sometimes higher - but not more than 125-130 for either lye or oils. I use a 34% lye solution (1:2 roughly).

I have only had seizes with EOs like cinnamon leaf or FOs like TSW's ginger gelato. I very occasionally have had ricing (BB's gardenia). In my experience, the fragrance is what is responsible for seizing. I mostly use EOs which I find less problematic than FOs.

My recommendation is to bring your oils and lye solution to a light emulsion. Set your SB to the side. Hand stir in your fragrance, then separate and add your colors. Use a spoon or a whisk. That should keep your soap fluid.

False trace I've only gotten when I soaped too cool and used a goodly amount of hard butters (cocoa/kokum) and/or PKO flakes. In order to keep the stearic in suspension, I soap at least at 110. If you get false trace (it will look grainy), keep stirring and as the lye and oils get going, the mixture should smooth and then thin out. Then you can bring them to a true trace.

Hope this helps!

 

[Todd_in_Minnesota]

Many Thanks

Hey Donna, CSL, and Judy,
Thanks so much for your advice - it's exactly what I was hoping for.
I'll definitely mix cooler in the future (more patience, grrr....), and I'll check into the Scent Review board (thanks Donna, I wasn't even aware).

But - it sounds like the essential oils are the biggest contributor, and as long as I insist on experimenting with scents I'll be discovering new ways to cause seize.
I guess I'll just keep documenting my discoveries to the forum, and count it as 'experience'. Like they say, "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."

Cheers all!
Todd

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I mixed my (only) batch at 60 Celsius! Thankfully it was a simple recipe and all went well

 

[DeeAnna]

60 C = 140 F for those who are wondering

 

[hlee]

What I do is very much like what you do.
I do let lye water cool down for awhile before mixing into oils.
Seizing has not happened to me yet but certain fragrances will almost always rice on me. Others will use it with no problems so I wonder how much the recipe comes into play also.

 

[Todd_in_Minnesota]

Update -

So yesterday I went a little crazy, and mixed up two batches of this same recipe.
(HLee - Good thought. My recipe is a bit heavy on the solid oils, but I don't want to tinker with that until I understand what else is going on.)
This time I used known-safe essential oils; one batch was orange/ylangylang and the other was cedar/lavender. I mixed them at around 100F (38C if you happen to be Efficacious :>), and then each batch was divided into two different color bowls.

All four bowls behaved very nicely... they politely waited for me to stick-blend them before they even started to trace. All went well with the pours, and I believe the swirl worked too.
If it's worth sharing, I'll post to the Gallery later tomorrow.

But - I think this proves the essential oils are the culprit here.
Thanks again to everybody for your thoughtful responses!
Todd

 

[judymoody]

Just an FYI for the future, ylang can be speeedy depending on how much you use.

Glad it worked out for you.