Advice on Criticism

[DunbarDesigned]

Hey yall! (Yes I'm from Texas)
I was curious to hear about dealing with criticism. Now this is a forum so I already knew that there would be a vast diversity of personalities as well as skill levels. As a beginner in anything I do, I find it extremely hard to handle criticism. Especially if its my first, even second go at something. I have been adamant in expressing how fresh I am to the soap making scene and yet I feel like some of the "professional" (deemed by them) soapers were being a little harsh in tone when they were advising. I feel like they might be trying to help but I just personally don't like it when those with more experience seem to assert themselves over someone in the learning stage as if there is an expectation to know everything as soon as you buy some lye. (Okay, okay...you should DEFINITELY know something before getting to the lye but come on!) Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive? I mean one person even went so far as to "advise" me in one post and basically reprimand me, while undermining the knowledge I have gained, in the next. I would love to learn from everyone, not just the professionals but I'm already uncomfortable.

 

[Kittish]

Criticism aimed at improving one's craft I'll always step back and try to look at objectively, even if the tone it's delivered in is harsh or confrontational. It might take me a bit to calm down enough to do so, if things get heated, but I try.

Comments aimed at products people encounter out in the wild? I don't expect anyone to be 'nice' or even polite if the quality of the product doesn't warrant it. Think about it, would you give rave reviews to a 'baker' who decided to start selling their pies after watching a video or two and finding one or two dodgy recipes, and whose pies turned out soupy, soggy messes? For that matter, would you buy that pie in the first place? Probably not.

And if that baker insisted that 'my pies are great! You just don't appreciate them!' if you tried to direct them to a source for good, reliable information, you probably would lose most of your respect for that person. There's a whole lotta 'my pies are great!' that comes through here.

Ask questions. Don't ever be afraid to ask questions here. Go digging through old threads. Fiddle with the search function. This is a wonderful resource for learning about making soap and other bath products. Jump in and learn something! It's fascinating. I had no idea when I got into this hobby that there was so MUCH variation or so many possibilities.

And as I said in another thread, take the time to learn the craft. Take the time to be certain that the product you're sending out is the best it can possibly be.

 

[psfred]

Written words do not carry intonation, so it's very easy for someone who writes in short sentences to appear harsh when they don't mean to. Just the nature of written vs spoken words. No facial expressions, either, and we primates get LOTS of clues from facial movement during speech.

And sometimes you just strike someone wrong and they are a bit snippier than they intend to be. Stick with us, though, this is a great resource with very experienced people who want to help you along.

Also, please remember than everyone's skin is different, so a soap that suits one person quite well will not make someone else happy -- I prefer soaps that most ladies would probably find much to drying, as I have fairly oily skin (never had dry skin, even when I lived in Northern Ontario). Conditioning soaps feel greasy to me, and very unpleasant, but my mother really likes the HP one I superfatted with cocoa butter and shea butter, same as I use in shaving soap (and may reduce the superfat in next time). So you really need to make what you think is a good recipe and see how it works. You can always make something different next time!

I find that I just have to ignore some remarks -- even if they are maliciously intended, you will be better off pretending you didn't hear them. My sister is very negative, always has been, so I've started not responding to her digs. Don't know why she's so unhappy all the time, and no longer care. Makes my life a lot easier, eh?

Oh, and the search function here isn't very good, you get better results using a phrase in Google or one of the site search engines -- you cannot search on three letter words on site, for instance. It's a poor function in the software, you have to work around it. Lots of good information, and likely the answer to most of your current and future questions if you can find a way to locate the data.

 

[soapmaker]

Written words can be easily misunderstood. If someone answered a little too harshly they may have misinterpreted what you meant in your post. Just don't take it personally, learn what you can and stay with us. There's a lot of help here and if you are new as you say, to soapmaking you will come across problems that will be a whole lot easier to figure out with help from others.

Just don't sell till you have experience.

 

[Obsidian]

Like already mentioned, it can be hard to read tone over the internet. Combine that with people who might have a more blunt or straight to the point personality and its easy to misunderstand and get hurt feelins.

I've been on this forum for a few years, I know the people who post here and none think they are better. More experienced, yes but not better. There is a difference.

If something hurts your feelings, take a step back and give it some time, you will probably see the comments in a different light once some time passes. I too took things wrong when I first joined, when people are passionate about a subject, its easy to come across as over bearing.

Nothing is personal so try and not take it that way. I also firmly believe that if you are going to use forums, you need to develop thick skin, at least to a degree. There will always be people you don't like or who just rub you the wrong way, you gotta learn to deal with tem.
I'll admit there are people here I don't care much for but their experience is greater than mine and it would be silly of me to dismiss what they say because of personal feelings.

Welcome to the forum, you'll learn a lot from everyone here

 

[Dahila]

The best forum ever, I prefer when someone gives me info I need it, We have awesome people here, I learned so much from them. You should join some soapmakers groups on Facebook then you would come back and bless us for being so nice
Would you prefer us to lie to you...............oooooooooooo such beautiful nice and gentle soap, when we see that it is not?

 

[BrewerGeorge]

I hope this isn't about me. If so, it was not my intent to scold you. If it bothered you, I apologize. My post was aggressive about that soap I saw that day and my expectations for it, not aggressive towards you.

And I meant professional in the literal sense - those who sell. I am not a professional.

 

[toxikon]

As others have said, tone is hard to read on the internet and because everyone is a stranger, it's easier to be a bit more forward with eachother instead of sugar coating as we might with a friend or family member. That's just a fact of the internet! I've been going on forums and chatrooms since I was 13 and first got the internet, you definitely need a thick skin and try not to take things personally. It's easiest to assume the best intentions of people - we're all here to help and educate as best we can. Stick around!!

 

[lsg]

I know that I have gotten the wrong impression from a post. When I get a bit miffed, I back off for a while and then go back and re-read the post, later. Usually, I find that the intent of the post was not to offend. Hope you find the same. I don't think anyone really likes criticism, but we can certainly learn from constructive criticism.

 

[SoapTrey]

Hi Dundar! It's nice to meet you.

You can read a post 1000 ways with tones and inflections abound. I completely understand where you are coming from, but in the end it's just soap.

Some of us take it more seriously than others and that's OK! The advice you are getting is simply that...so yea take it or leave it and don't be so sensitive about it... just my humble opinion.

 

[BattleGnome]

I just found
this NPR article. It almost exactly covers the issue.

A quick summary:
Researchers were able to find volunteers from some people who were getting brain surgery for epilepsy. Doctors put probes on the brain's surface to try and find out where the seizures were located, part of this included listening to different sentences spoken by a computerized voice. The researchers had the computer repeat sentences with different inflections and found the brain reacted differently based on where they changed the tone.

The end of the article specifically mentions Autism research but the same idea applies to the critical tone one people feel the forum has (this isn't the first time it's been brought up). If we don't hear it then our brains don't always know how to interpret it. In a book you'll have context clues or mentions of "he said angrily" to let you know something was supposed to be negative. The people who tend to stick around longer than a month or two seem to internalize interpreting the forum tone as mostly positive (we are humans after all) and it's new people who tend to react to tone.


I also have a slight theory that this forum tends to attract people with a Miers-Briggs personality type of thinking or judging (the counterparts being feeling or perceiving) but have no actual basis to state it as a fact. We do have a lot of people who rely on the science of why or how things work which generally points to a T or J in the Miers-Briggs. The forum's most reccomended book is "Scientific Soapmaking" after all.

 

[SunRiseArts]

:bunny: Howdy neighbor! (Well sort off)

Hope you are nowhere close to Harvey. What a tragedy...... what part of Texas are you from? South, North, East, or West?

 

[Relle]

DD, here is a link in the forum, you might like to read on forum culture and tone -
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56833

 

[Susie]

Hey and welcome! I'm from Louisiana, but I live in Texas now. Hope you are not from any of the Harvey stricken areas!

I don't think it was me, as I have tried to stay away from controversial subjects...at least since last week. I was raised in a military/medical home. Those are some straightforward speaking folks! Then I trained as a nurse, which compounded my tendency to just state facts without a lot of extra words. I almost never mean to sound critical, however I come across that way to many. I am truly simply trying to convey information in the most efficient manner possible. There are a lot of us that try to just convey information without a lot of extraneous verbiage.

And then there are those that get a little hot under the collar over some subjects.

And it is sometimes hard to tell the difference. Especially for someone new.

Continue to read the forum, give it a bit, and you will learn who is mad and who is not. We generally try to keep things civil, but sometimes people step over lines, and the mods take care of them swiftly enough.

 

[WyvernWench]

Hey Dunbar! First and foremost welcome to the forum!!!!! I am a newbie as well, having made my first batch of soap in May this year.

The responses are leaning towards faulting you on the way you interrupted the criticism and in implying that you have added an emotional content to the post that may or may not have been there. While these may be legitimate concepts they are only half the full story.

It takes TWO to make a fight! So while we all need to add a touch of detachment to how we read and interrupt replies, we must also critic and evaluate how others will read the replies we post. Just a few moments to read exactly what we have written and consider how someone else might 'hear' it can avoid a thousand little problems before they happen.

There is a huge difference between criticism - catching someone doing something WRONG - and a critic - a balanced review.

Yes, we all make mistakes, but we all also do something great, even in the worst disasters. Before you hit the Post Reply button, take a moment and check which type of post you wrote. Is it all about the mistakes? Did you take that moment to comment first on something the member did well?

Criticism only posts make people back away, pull back, and feel like failures.
Criticism only posts make people stop participating because they don't want to be seen as failures.

Critics show the person both what they did right, what they did that really worked, and what they might change to make it even better next time. Critics focus on growing, improving, and expanding your skills - which includes doing the 'something rights' again and again.

Since joining this forum in May I think I have started only four threads. My first three threads were posted to the Beginner's section, and all three got moved by a moderator immediately and I still don't know where they went. ??? No a very welcoming feeling for me. So I learned fast not to start threads here ....

So please remember as you create new posts, new threads, and new replies ...

* This is a forum made up of people who follow the recipe EXACTLY down the the one-hundredth of an ounce - a strict regiment for accuracy. Please remember that 'doing something right' is the biggest part of the regiment.

* This is a forum made up of people that are obsessive-compulsive about scraping the pitchers ABSOLUTELY CLEAN so that they capture every drop of batter. Go to youtube and watch a few videos and you see that 5 minutes is used on making, coloring, and pouring, but 9 minutes are used up by scraping, cleaning, and chasing droplets of batter. So please remember to back away from those little tiny droplets of mistakes, and see the big picture of what the poster learned or accomplished today.

* And this is a forum of people who have extreme patience in their craft, all headed towards the same goal. And that goal is not creating that Perfect Bar of Soap ... it about sharing their love and excitement for soap making. Sharing is what forums are all about.

* And they are very willing to share with you what they have learned along the way.

So to all that have posted about 'how someone else miss-interrupts' your post
I will ask ... Did you catch someone doing something right today?

Thank you for reading, these are just my opinions and with 50 cents won't buy you a cup of coffee at Mickie D's.

EDIT - Quoting Mary Poppins, A spoonful of sugar ......

 

[earlene]

Thank you, WyvernWench, for your well thought out and well articulated response.

 

[penelopejane]

Wyvernwench
At the very top of the soapmaking forum page is "today's posts" when I look at the forum I only look at that list. You can't lose a post that way and you can see which topics have been updated since you last looked.

The mods try to keep posts together in their correct little huddle. Don't take having had a post moved as a slight against you-it's a filing thing!

Go ahead and start a thread if you need to and adjust your search!

To the OP Dunbardesigns: I've looked in on "the dish" and a few Facebook soaping pages and I come scuttling back here for protection! You'll learn to hear each person's particular voice eventually and get to know them. Everyone is trying to help in their own way.

 

[lenarenee]

I couldn't tell if you truly were looking for advice on how to handle criticism, or if this was your way of saying, "Hey dude/dudette, you hurt my feelings" to the person who did, without directly confronting them in the thread.

So I didn't respond.

But you did leave me wondering how I handle criticism, which led me to the question - is it worth paying attention to someone's criticism?

I'm a child care provider in a rather wealthy entitled area. New people are turned off when they hear what I do for work. Their comments range from "why would you ever want to do that? Did you ever think of getting a real job? to...but you seem intelligent....

Many people really do think that any moron can "watch" kids. But do they do it well?

I have one particular child who thanks me every day - at least once - for the way I take care of her. She feels loved, respected, valued, supported...and strengthened enough to face the challenges in her day.

I never had that as a kid, so I know how absolutely priceless my work is. I don't need/want a corporate charge account or designer clothes to feel worthy. When I look into a child's eyes and see hope, joy and confidence....that's golden.

Sorry for the long story, but it leads me back to you:

A nameless stranger seems to have a negative feeling about your soaping knowledge. Does it matter? Should it stop you from fulfilling your goal of learning to make soap? Does it mean you should feel bad?

You have ONE person you are completely accountable to; yourself. You don't need to please any one else, so feel free to take care of your needs and ignore anything that isn't worth your time.

You are wanted here. Welcome to the forum; I look forward to seeing your future soaping adventures!

 

[soapmaker]

I just hope Dunbar sees all this support.

 

[WyvernWench]

Wyvernwench
At the very top of the soapmaking forum page is "today's posts" when I look at the forum I only look at that list. You can't lose a post that way and you can see which topics have been updated since you last looked.

The mods try to keep posts together in their correct little huddle. Don't take having had a post moved as a slight against you-it's a filing thing!

Go ahead and start a thread if you need to and adjust your search!

To the OP Dunbardesigns: I've looked in on "the dish" and a few Facebook soaping pages and I come scuttling back here for protection! You'll learn to hear each person's particular voice eventually and get to know them. Everyone is trying to help in their own way.

Thank you PennyJ!!!!!!