Well I have this whipped batter.... What's next? I was envisioning a sugar whipped scrub thingy but the sugar kind of liquidified. What exactly do I do with this? ... I am thinking I did something wrong still.
A Cream Soap Tutorial
- Thread starter Lindy
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It all depends on how much water you added. If you are wanting to do a sugar scrub with this then you keep adding sugar until it doesn't melt. Same if you wanted to make a salt scrub.
Thanks Lindy! I am a little intimidated by this experiment! I used 1 cup of whipped batter to about three cups of organic sugar and Wow! It makes my skin feel so great! Moisturized! Soft! Love your recipe!
I am thrilled that you like it and that you were able to get it to work for you.
alaskazimm
Well-Known Member
When I made this recipe last week, I thought it was a bit greasy, but after sitting for a bit less than a week it's much less and the lather is a bit more bubbly. Even with the short "rot" I'm quite liking it and can't wait to see how it is after another month or two.
I also made a shave cream based off my croap recipe. I juggled the numbers a bit to boost the stearic and used a superfat of 10% and stearic/glycerin supercream. Again, even with the short rotting time (less than a week) it makes some of the densest and slickest lather I've come across. At this point, though I haven't shaved with it, it's probably a bit drying. I'm trying to have patience before I put it on my face.
I got to thinking that instead of supercreaming with straight stearic, would there be much of a downside to supercreaming with shea or mango butter? Both of those are high in stearic, so I'm guessing it would probably work. I just wish I had a smaller crockpot so I didn't have to make such a big batch (~16 oz oils) of soap for testing.
I also made a shave cream based off my croap recipe. I juggled the numbers a bit to boost the stearic and used a superfat of 10% and stearic/glycerin supercream. Again, even with the short rotting time (less than a week) it makes some of the densest and slickest lather I've come across. At this point, though I haven't shaved with it, it's probably a bit drying. I'm trying to have patience before I put it on my face.
I got to thinking that instead of supercreaming with straight stearic, would there be much of a downside to supercreaming with shea or mango butter? Both of those are high in stearic, so I'm guessing it would probably work. I just wish I had a smaller crockpot so I didn't have to make such a big batch (~16 oz oils) of soap for testing.
LBussy
Well-Known Member
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alaskazimm
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the suggestion, Lee! Of course, though that means I need more patience before I can try this again. . . sigh
alaskazimm
Well-Known Member
Also, playing around with the numbers - to get the 14 gm of stearic supercream needed, I would need 35 gm of shea/mango which are each ~40% stearic. That's 7.7% of the total oils. I wonder now if that much free oil will impact the lather too much? Really only one way to find out.
That much in free oils will not be friendly to the lather plus it will increase the SF something terrible. The Super Cream is not the same thing as the superfat, the super cream is to increase the density of the lather rather than increase the oil content.
alaskazimm
Well-Known Member
Thanks again for the advice Lindy.
I realize the supercream and superfat are two different beasts. I was contemplating if I could get the best of both worlds out of a supercream with shea - lather density and conditioning. Maybe I'll make a small batch for my own edification.
I realize the supercream and superfat are two different beasts. I was contemplating if I could get the best of both worlds out of a supercream with shea - lather density and conditioning. Maybe I'll make a small batch for my own edification.
LBussy
Well-Known Member
I still have a really basic question/sticking point with this in general:
When is a fat not a fat?
I get that SA (technically a fatty acid) is often used in lotions, creams, whatever, to thicken, add "creaminess", etc. Why is it that adding this is not the same as adding oils or fats? Is it because it is a fatty acid? Does the "stearic acid" most places sell that is really stearin work too? I suspect it toes .. which leads me to another "why?" moment.
When is a fat not a fat?
I get that SA (technically a fatty acid) is often used in lotions, creams, whatever, to thicken, add "creaminess", etc. Why is it that adding this is not the same as adding oils or fats? Is it because it is a fatty acid? Does the "stearic acid" most places sell that is really stearin work too? I suspect it toes .. which leads me to another "why?" moment.
"..instead of supercreaming with straight stearic, would there be much of a downside to supercreaming with shea or mango butter? Both of those are high in stearic, so I'm guessing it would probably work...."
I get the feeling you're confusing a fat and a fatty acid. Fats do contain fatty acids, but they don't function the same as fatty acids. It's like saying table salt and sodium hydroxide are the same because they both contain sodium.
Stearic added as a "supercream" is acting as a thickener and it can even add a drier and more waxy feel. Shea or mango won't thicken the cream soap -- they instead will make the product softer and greasier.
***
"...Does the "stearic acid" most places sell that is really stearin work too?..."
Stearin and commercial stearic acid are not the same product.
When you cool liquid palm oil or lard or tallow slowly, the fats higher in stearic and palmitic acid will crystallize out into solid bits that can be removed by filtration. The solid fat blend collected from this filtration is stearin. Olein is the liquid fat collected from this same filtration -- these are the fats higher in oleic acid.
Commercial stearic acid is the blend of palmitic acid and stearic acid from hydrolyzing stearin to break down this fat into its constituent fatty acids and glycerin.
I get the feeling you're confusing a fat and a fatty acid. Fats do contain fatty acids, but they don't function the same as fatty acids. It's like saying table salt and sodium hydroxide are the same because they both contain sodium.
Stearic added as a "supercream" is acting as a thickener and it can even add a drier and more waxy feel. Shea or mango won't thicken the cream soap -- they instead will make the product softer and greasier.
***
"...Does the "stearic acid" most places sell that is really stearin work too?..."
Stearin and commercial stearic acid are not the same product.
When you cool liquid palm oil or lard or tallow slowly, the fats higher in stearic and palmitic acid will crystallize out into solid bits that can be removed by filtration. The solid fat blend collected from this filtration is stearin. Olein is the liquid fat collected from this same filtration -- these are the fats higher in oleic acid.
Commercial stearic acid is the blend of palmitic acid and stearic acid from hydrolyzing stearin to break down this fat into its constituent fatty acids and glycerin.
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LBussy
Well-Known Member
Yes ma'am and I think you know I know that.
I guess the point is unless you really know what you are buying when you ask for stearin acid, you could be getting stearin, a stearic/palmitic acid blend, or stearic acid. I've seen all three sold as SA in hobby shops and online. The point I was leading towards was if the supercream effect depends on a fatty acid, or even more specifically SA, that may explain some of the mixed results.
I was wondering why you asked the question in that particular way, Lee. I gather now that you were asking this rhetorically, and it's obvious I missed the cue. My apologies for not seeing it.
....bowing out of the discussion....
....bowing out of the discussion....
LBussy
Well-Known Member
Sometimes you get a big fish when you drop a hook.
Your input is always valued DeeAnna, and if I'm headed in the right direction with that line of thinking I'm eager to know. Just seems ... plausible.
Your input is always valued DeeAnna, and if I'm headed in the right direction with that line of thinking I'm eager to know. Just seems ... plausible.
alaskazimm
Well-Known Member
OK, thanks DeeAnna, it's becoming a bit clearer. But here's what I still don't get - if the fatty acids and fats don't function in the same way, then why does the stearic component of shea, tallow, etc go towards the thick, creamy lather of a soap when not used as a supercream?
I may need to break down and find Failor's book on cream soaps . . .
Stearic Acid is just that - 100% Stearic where Shea butter et el has stearic in them By adding these you are increasing your superfat which reduces lather and adds greasiness.
First, I want to add a bit more to my previous answer about why stearic acid and fats high in stearic are not the same. We were talking at that point about using stearic acid as a supercream ingredient. When used as a thickener, the stearic acid doesn't go through any chemical reaction. It's just a mechanical thickener -- a lot like stirring dirt into a bucket of water. Add enough dirt to the water, and you get thick mud, but the dirt doesn't change its chemical nature.
"...why does the stearic component of shea, tallow, etc go towards the thick, creamy lather of a soap when not used as a supercream?..."
When turned into soap, the stearic acid, no matter whether it's from shea butter or stearic acid pellets, goes through a chemical reaction so it is no longer shea butter or stearic acid. The product you have is the SOAPS that come from shea or stearic acid.
Saponification (1) breaks down fats into fatty acids and glycerin and (2) turns the fatty acids into soap.
You can saponify stearic acid directly, as when we do when making cream soap (see Lindy's recipe in this thread) or make shave soap (see Songwind's "my first shave soap is a success" thread). A lot of commercial soaps are made by direct saponification of various fatty acids.
Or you can use stearic acid indirectly by using a fat that is high in this FA. Shea is mostly stearic and oleic fatty acids with a dab of palmitic and linoleic acids. So when you turn shea into soap, you end up with stearic soap + oleic soap + a touch of palmitic soap + a touch of linoleic soap + the unsaponifiable ingredients in shea. The soap isn't exactly a "shea soap" -- it's the soap that is made from the fatty acids in the shea.
Any soap made with a high percentage of stearic (or palmitic) acid tends to have a low amount of creamy lather, so you're going to see this type of lather with any fat or fatty acid blend high in palmitic and stearic.
Why, you wonder?
Stearic and palmitic soaps are not very soluble in water, so they don't rub off easily onto your washcloth compared to, say, the soaps from coconut oil. Less soap on your washcloth => less lather. These soaps are also rather long, heavy molecules, so they don't fluff up easily into a big puffy lather, compared with soap that comes from coconut oil which contains lighter, shorter, and more water soluble soap molecules.
I hope this answers your question.
"...why does the stearic component of shea, tallow, etc go towards the thick, creamy lather of a soap when not used as a supercream?..."
When turned into soap, the stearic acid, no matter whether it's from shea butter or stearic acid pellets, goes through a chemical reaction so it is no longer shea butter or stearic acid. The product you have is the SOAPS that come from shea or stearic acid.
Saponification (1) breaks down fats into fatty acids and glycerin and (2) turns the fatty acids into soap.
You can saponify stearic acid directly, as when we do when making cream soap (see Lindy's recipe in this thread) or make shave soap (see Songwind's "my first shave soap is a success" thread). A lot of commercial soaps are made by direct saponification of various fatty acids.
Or you can use stearic acid indirectly by using a fat that is high in this FA. Shea is mostly stearic and oleic fatty acids with a dab of palmitic and linoleic acids. So when you turn shea into soap, you end up with stearic soap + oleic soap + a touch of palmitic soap + a touch of linoleic soap + the unsaponifiable ingredients in shea. The soap isn't exactly a "shea soap" -- it's the soap that is made from the fatty acids in the shea.
Any soap made with a high percentage of stearic (or palmitic) acid tends to have a low amount of creamy lather, so you're going to see this type of lather with any fat or fatty acid blend high in palmitic and stearic.
Why, you wonder?
Stearic and palmitic soaps are not very soluble in water, so they don't rub off easily onto your washcloth compared to, say, the soaps from coconut oil. Less soap on your washcloth => less lather. These soaps are also rather long, heavy molecules, so they don't fluff up easily into a big puffy lather, compared with soap that comes from coconut oil which contains lighter, shorter, and more water soluble soap molecules.
I hope this answers your question.
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Deanna thank you for explaining it better than I can. I just know it works and that allows me to develop other soaps.
alaskazimm
Well-Known Member
I think I see now. So if I have this right - the stearic acid works as a thickener when used alone because it's just SA, but works when used in the saponification process (eg - shea) because it broken away from the rest of the fatty acids of the ingredient by the lye; so if shea is tried to be used as a supercream it isn't broken down into its parts and thus won't work in the same way. Which is what your first post said . . .
I've said it before and I'll say it again - you explain things so well that you could write a book! I'd be first in line to buy it.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - you explain things so well that you could write a book! I'd be first in line to buy it.
