Vanilla in rebatch soap

[annietjoe]

I am pretty sure the answer is yes, but will rebatch soap also discolor with vanilla? I know that hp, cpop, and cp will all discolor because they are still saponifying, but I am not sure if rebatch will since most of the chemical reactions have already taken place.

I also know that cp will still have some free lye in it (just a bit, nothing harmful). I know that when you rebatch and add extra oils, you can neutralize it even further (the benefit of hand milling). So....if a person were to triple mill the soap and then add the vanilla on the third time, will it still discolor with vanilla?

An input I can get on this would be greatly appreciated. I am at a loss. I have tried to research it but have not found much.

Thanks, Tiff

 

[thefarmerdaughter]

I've never tried what your suggesting, But I follow your logic, it makes sense to me. But good golly what a project, all to avoid discoloration? you are talking about a vanilla FO, right?

 

[annietjoe]

Well, I am fairly new to soaping. I have read about milled soap, and while I know that grated is not quite the same, I thought it might be nice. I just ordered a whole bunch of fragrances and realized that nearly every single one has vanilla in it. I feel that some of the vanilla stabilizers I have looked at were a bit pricey. So...I thought this might be one idea to try out in the meantime so that I can still use my fragrances without having to make another order.

All of what I have read (what I was able to find at least) stated that it is the reaction with the lye that causes the really brown tones. I don't mind off white or beige (some discoloration is bound to happen). I just don't want a lemon scented soap to be dark brown.

I will order the vanilla stabilizer when I get the chance though.

Thanks for actually responding!!!! I really appreciate it. I suppose I will try to let you know how it comes out. It might be some time!

 

[Seifenblasen]

I just ordered a whole bunch of fragrances and realized that nearly every single one has vanilla in it. I feel that some of the vanilla stabilizers I have looked at were a bit pricey.

What kind and where do you get your FO from? Call/email them and ask about discoloration as it depends on the percentage of vanillin, some FO with low percentage will only turn your CP soap into a beige/tan instead all the way to brown.

 

[thefarmerdaughter]

The stabilizer is an option. I've herd tales of titanium dioxide lighten discolored soap, and its fairly cheep.

 

[judymoody]

Why not embrace the brown? I don't know anybody who's been turned off by brown soap. They mostly care how it smells.

Here's a photo of some chocolate mint soap I made recently. I knew it would discolor so I worked with it. The lighter portion is titanium dioxide, the darker is cocoa powder

I wouldn't bother with the vanilla stabilizer. It only delays the inevitable and I've heard that some soapers have reported texture changes when they use it, particularly chalky soap.

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

pretty very pretty

 

[annietjoe]

I just ordered a whole bunch of fragrances and realized that nearly every single one has vanilla in it. I feel that some of the vanilla stabilizers I have looked at were a bit pricey.

What kind and where do you get your FO from? Call/email them and ask about discoloration as it depends on the percentage of vanillin, some FO with low percentage will only turn your CP soap into a beige/tan instead all the way to brown.

What percentage are we looking at exactly? I have some that I have looked up and they are as much as 7% vanilla. So..does anyone know of a basic way to gauge what kind of discoloration I might get? Like I said, I don't mind some discoloration, I just don't want a scent such as lemon to be dark brown.

Also, about embracing the brown, I do not mind that either. I would not mind a chocolate or vanilla soap that turned. However, if I have a floral scent, I'm not sure that I want it brown, or that as a consumer, I would find it visually appealing. Thanks JudyMoody for the picture though. Your soap is quite lovely.

Thanks everyone who replied. I am reconsidering the vanilla stabilizer.

Last night, I made an hp batch with a lemon poundcake fragrance in it. I only used a little bit because it smelled a bit more poundcake than lemon (it also contained vanilla). Instead of using it alone, I mixed it up with some other things while the soap was cooking. I mixed it with some kaolin clay, castor oil (good for anchoring scents I've read), lemon peel, and some lemon essential oil. Today, it smells fantastic. There has been no darkening so far. I am hoping the fragrance sticks and that it does not darken up much (if at all).

Thanks again for all the input!

 

[Cake Baby]

Last night, I made an hp batch with a lemon poundcake fragrance in it. I only used a little bit because it smelled a bit more poundcake than lemon (it also contained vanilla). Instead of using it alone, I mixed it up with some other things while the soap was cooking. I mixed it with some kaolin clay, castor oil (good for anchoring scents I've read), lemon peel, and some lemon essential oil. Today, it smells fantastic. There has been no darkening so far. I am hoping the fragrance sticks and that it does not darken up much (if at all).

I CP'd some Lemon Poundcake FO from Wholesale Supplies Plus and it turned a brown sugar color (and the scent morphed and lost all the pretty buttery notes). I love the FO so much in the bottle I have to try again, but next time I plan on HPing it (to keep the scent delicious) and throwing in some vanilla stabilizer (from wsp). I hope you had better luck than I did. Mine started going dark within 4 days or so, so if you remember to, please let us know how the color held up!

 

[Seifenblasen]

7% vanilla in a FO would discolor the soap to brown for sure (assuming you are adding it at the common rate of 3 - 5%). I also believe even if you triple-mill your soap, vanilla will still discolor it because while there is no free lye, it is still an alkaline environment. Point in case: vanilla will discolor MP soap.

I went to Nature's Garden's site and look at their FOs. Most of them have the percentage of vanilla listed, and how dark they will discolor a soap. So what I did is pull the description of a handful of FO based on a range of vanilla content and how dark they go in CP soap:

8.2%, dark chocolate:

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/can ... -Oil-.html

5.5%, dark brown:

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/can ... e-Oil.html

4.5%, light brown:

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/can ... e-Oil.html

3.1%, soft caramel color:

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/can ... -Oil-.html

2%, light tan:

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/can ... -Oil-.html

1.2%, tan:

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/can ... -Oil-.html

0.8%, no discoloration:

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/can ... e-Oil.html

0.5%, light caramel:

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/can ... e-Oil.html

If you are strictly looking at vanilla only, it seems like 3-4% and above will discolor CP to brown to dark brown, around 1 to 3% will give you tan/caramel, and below 1% will have little or no discoloration.

The problem is, there are other components in FO, besides vanilla that will discolor.

If you really want to get into the chemistry of discoloration, this is an interesting paper:

http://www.surechem.org/index.php?Actio ... upType=all

 

[kellistarr]

I must chime in and say that I doubt that "triple milling" would stop the inevitable discoloration. At first, I brightened, thinking you were on to something, perhaps triple milling might work. But then I remembered my bath bombs, scented with a fragrance that contained vanilla. The bombs stayed white for a while, maybe more than a month, but eventually turned into dark brown truffles. I was relieved I hadn't shared them with anyone.

 

[annietjoe]

7% vanilla in a FO would discolor the soap to brown for sure (assuming you are adding it at the common rate of 3 - 5%). I also believe even if you triple-mill your soap, vanilla will still discolor it because while there is no free lye, it is still an alkaline environment. Point in case: vanilla will discolor MP soap.

Thank you Seifenblasen for this apt response!! I was looking for some other reason, duh right? Well, I just did a pumpkin spice loaf tonight and I am sure it will be brown in the next few days. Also, thanks for the article and the guidelines you posted. This is very, very, helpful.

 

[annietjoe]

Kellistarr, thank you also. You reminded me that I read somewhere about vanilla discoloring over time as well. I just forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder. Since I am so new to this, I love being able to share stories, information, and get help. I will let everyone know how the lemon comes out. I am thinking it will not discolor since I only used 1 tsp for three pounds (because I was using other things). It is a bit discouraging since I have read negative stories about vanilla stabilizer. I may just avoid vanilla altogether unless brown/beige/tan is appropriate.

Thanks again!