DeeAnna and SA in HP / EDTA

[LBussy]

I don't remember which thread this was discussed - DeeAnna shared that she felt adding the lye to everything but the SA first, then mixing in the SA would lead to better homogenization. I started down this path with a question about one of my shave soaps and spots:

Those spots (I think) were less translucent areas that simply went away as the soap cured:

(This is getting down to the bottom so there is some see-through areas).

Here's one I did last night in a much larger batch:

Many more spots, potentially smaller. It got me to thinking. This time I used the SB when I added the lye. Could this be why the spots are smaller but there are more? A second related thought - this time I used a much larger crock-pot which had a harder time keeping the whole batch hot. There was often a thick layer on top which was more solidified that I stirred in. Did that help create the less translucent spots?

The first would lend credence to DeeAnna's theory, the second to the theory that these are dryer areas. I still don't know what the answer is. If I remember I'll try DeeAnna's method next time.

Second - this was my first use of EDTA in my shave soap. Following IrishLass' advice I used 0.5% of the total batch weight dissolved in water (I made a 30% solution by withholding a portion of my lye water - worked fine.) This was last night so I have not shaved with it yet but I did notice a very big difference. When I clean up after soaping I generally see a slight "scum" formed on the surface of the water in my containers as I clean them. This time, no scum. It's a less than scientific test but I found the results dramatic and promising.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

In a related thread about spotty soap, I alluded to the possibility of the batter not being homogeneous but didn't have a chance to elaborate. In my case it was a matter of known imperfect mixing, because I used a rancid palm oil to make a small test batch and was rushing to get it into the mold as it seized. Interesting if it could happen under such different circumstances, but I have patches of something that looks terribly similar. I plan to stop by the workshop later and will compare, maybe post a pic. In my case, a batch with good oils and the same recipe didn't show this effect.

 

[LBussy]

In a related thread about spotty soap, I alluded to the possibility of the batter not being homogeneous but didn't have a chance to elaborate. In my case it was a matter of known imperfect mixing, because I used a rancid palm oil to make a small test batch and was rushing to get it into the mold as it seized. Interesting if it could happen under such different circumstances, but I have patches of something that looks terribly similar. I plan to stop by the workshop later and will compare, maybe post a pic. In my case, a batch with good oils and the same recipe didn't show this effect.

This one was certainly homogenized before adding lye. I SB'd it and scraped the sides very well before adding the lye. I added the lye with the SB going. When I added SF and FO I used a potato masher. Next time maybe a hand mixer or even a potato ricer.

 

[shunt2011]

I've had the exact same experience a couple times. However, it was with both techniques. I know they are well blended in both but got the same effect. Still works great (according to my husband) but I chose not to sell those so he has enough for a lifetime.

 

[LBussy]

It's a weird thing. By this morning the spots are hardly noticeable. I'll report back if/when I try something else. I do not notice any negative performance impact.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

It looks so much like mottling in paraffin wax, which is caused by tiny fractures in the crystal structure that fill with air and appear white. It could appear as anything from a few little patches to an overall surface effect.

 

[LBussy]

It looks so much like mottling in paraffin wax, which is caused by tiny fractures in the crystal structure that fill with air and appear white. It could appear as anything from a few little patches to an overall surface effect.

Maybe something like that - along the lines of crystallization? The soap *is* very high in hard oils.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Finally got the pic of the tester gone wrong. Don't know if it means anything, but that does look kinda similar.

 

[girlishcharm2004]

I use a high amount of stearic acid and hard oils with a very small percentage of liquid oils (castor oil). Can you give more information on your recipe and technique? I've never seen this in my experience. Then again, I don't use EDTA. Does this only happen when you use EDTA?

 

[LBussy]

Finally got the pic of the tester gone wrong. Don't know if it means anything, but that does look kinda similar.View attachment 14041

I assume the darker marks are intended?

The whiter portions sort of look like surface coloring? Or is that just how the pics look? Mine are definitely in there, like champagne bubbles in sort of murky champagne.

 

[LBussy]

Can you give more information on your recipe and technique?

Uh ... sure. :shock:

1. The Beginning
2. Sourcing Tools and Ingredients
3. Process

The fact that it goes away sort of speaks to it maybe being a hydration difference. Maybe.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

I assume the darker marks are intended?

The whiter portions sort of look like surface coloring? Or is that just how the pics look? Mine are definitely in there, like champagne bubbles in sort of murky champagne.

Lol, the darker marks are a botanical that won't get another audition.

The lighter fluff is just below the surface. Unlike yours, this has been progressive, especially in the corners where I suppose the drying is fastest. It has only appeared on the soap that seized up, which possibly didn't get mixed well.

 

[LBussy]

Well maybe "intentional" was the wrong word.

Hrm, weird. Mine is kinda opposite of that I guess. I need to try both DeeAnna's method, and some other mechanical method of consolidation to see what's what.

 

[girlishcharm2004]

Uh ... sure. :shock:

1. The Beginning
2. Sourcing Tools and Ingredients
3. Process

The fact that it goes away sort of speaks to it maybe being a hydration difference. Maybe.

Wow, that was a long read.

After reading your description (and your knowledge), it looks like dried soap bits. If that's what you mean by "a hydration difference," then I think you are absolutely correct. You could try it again with more water as I think 33% is a bit low for hot process. The down side to more water is that you'll have to let it cure longer.

I personally don't see the benefit for the two step method of adding stearic acid later, but if it's easier for you, then that's all that matters!

 

[LBussy]

Wow, that was a long read.

Well you did ask for all the info.

After reading your description (and your knowledge), it looks like dried soap bits. If that's what you mean by "a hydration difference," then I think you are absolutely correct.

I'm leaning more towards that myself. Here's a side by side what, 2 days later?:

The lighting is different, but the darker one had brighter lighting so the difference would be even more pronounced if I equalized them.

You could try it again with more water as I think 33% is a bit low for hot process. The down side to more water is that you'll have to let it cure longer.

Mebbe, then again I don't really package this as a puck so being a touch softer in the tub is not really an issue.

I personally don't see the benefit for the two step method of adding stearic acid later, but if it's easier for you, then that's all that matters!

I don't think it's easier but that's what DeeAnna said she does and she doesn't have these spots. WHo knows, it's worth a try. Nothing is lost by doing an experiment - I'll just learn more.

Either a stand mixer, a hand mixer, or one of these next time:

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Here's more of the mysterious mottling.

http://www.soap-making-essentials.com/white-mottled-soap.html