About trace

[dimitris]

I have a few questions about trace. I know that answers for these are probably scattered around the forum, but I can't reach a solid conclusion so here goes.

1) To slow down trace, use full water. This seems to help slow down things for advanced techniques (swirling etc). Is this right?
2) I have found out that some techniques are impossible with even the slightest hint of trace. Some swirling techniques that require mixing colours, putting the batter in separate containers require the soap to be almost watery (that goes for me).
If the batter is mixed very thoroughly with a SB, but it hasn't reached trace, what is the implication of putting it in the mould? So in other words, is trace necessary?

Thanks!

 

[Ianto]

You might find this article helpful, it talks about emulsion vs. trace:

http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-b...cg-conference-guest-post-peacock-swirl-class/

 

[Robert]

If the batter is mixed very thoroughly with a SB, but it hasn't reached trace, what is the implication of putting it in the mould? So in other words, is trace necessary?

I'm very interested in the answer to that one too. Offhand it'd seem that uniform is uniform, and that waiting for trace to mold it would carry a slight risk of un-uniforming it. Plus there are those stories of some soaps that go rapidly from trace to stuck in the kettle. But because waiting for trace is standard practice, it makes me wonder whether there's a need for the molded portions to skin over quickly to prevent non-uniformity within the individual aliquots.

 

[kazmi]

You might find this article helpful, it talks about emulsion vs. trace:

http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-b...cg-conference-guest-post-peacock-swirl-class/

Thanks! Good explanation. Now I feel a little more comfortable in knowing what to look for to know when I can stop SB'ing

 

[dimitris]

Thanks for all the answers, point taken about emulsion and trace.
Juiceman, I was under the impression that trace is a result of the saponification process which is going to happen anyway.
As far as emulsion and a very good mix of lye/oils has been reached, isn't emulsion enough from your perspective?

 

[purplefan]

The soap I make with 7 colours is barely emulsified when I pour off in too the colours
I then mix just enough to have the colour mixed in properly
Then start pouring the not yet traced soap
By the time I'm pouring the very last of the colours, the mixture is starting to thicken

 

[kazmi]

Thanks for all the answers, point taken about emulsion and trace.
Juiceman, I was under the impression that trace is a result of the saponification process which is going to happen anyway.
As far as emulsion and a very good mix of lye/oils has been reached, isn't emulsion enough from your perspective?

Don't you risk separation? Even with making lotions, etc., you can reach emulsification but it can still separate.

 

[Cosmo]

Soap does not need to be at trace when poured (defining trace as lifting up your SB and the soap making trails in the batter). However, it does need to be emulsified. When I use several colorants in one batch (layers), I do not reach trace. I let the untraced layer harden before I pour the next on to achieve even layers.

I've been making soap like this for years, and never had a problem with separation.

 

[MKRainville]

Not sure why facepalm.

It's ok.. he put a photo of people in tin-foil hats for me because I don't want to put petroleum based products in my soap or on my skin... because of possible carcinogens.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36969&page=2

 

[Cosmo]

baby oil is possibly carcinogenic. If the baby oil is made from mineral oil (most are), the level of carcinogenicity depends on how refined the mineral oil is. Mineral oil that has been refined well enough is not generally harmful. If it has not been well refined then yes, it can be carcinogenic.

"The World Health Organization classifies untreated or mildly treated mineral oils as Group 1 carcinogens to humans; highly refined oils are classified as Group 3, meaning they are not suspected to be carcinogenic but available information is not sufficient to classify them as harmless."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil

No matter what, facepalms are not nice!

 

[MKRainville]

my point is now is... why put up sarcastic and rude images?

Who are you to make people feel humiliated?? What is the point?

 

[MKRainville]

no, I gave you the tinfoil hat because you said baby oil contains carcinogens

baby oil is possibly carcinogenic. If the baby oil is made from mineral oil (most are), the level of carcinogenicity depends on how refined the mineral oil is. Mineral oil that has been refined well enough is not generally harmful. If it has not been well refined then yes, it can be carcinogenic.

"The World Health Organization classifies untreated or mildly treated mineral oils as Group 1 carcinogens to humans; highly refined oils are classified as Group 3, meaning they are not suspected to be carcinogenic but available information is not sufficient to classify them as harmless."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil

No matter what, facepalms are not nice!

I have run a mass-spec on baby oil and petroleum jelly before in one of the many chem classes..I think I was in Organic Chemistry class... the same place I learned how to make soap for the first time....and the laundry list of hydro-carbons is ridiculous. It reported back trace amounts of carcinogenic hydro-carbons.. but in very minuscule amounts. So my point is that yes they do exist in cosmetic grade store bought baby oil and store bought petroleum jellies.

 

[DeeAnna]

Hey, folks, take a breath. I thought the OP was about trace, and I'd like to see this thread get back on track with answering the OP's question. I'm curious about the different points of view about this issue.

 

[dimitris]

Lets get back to the topic of discussion.

I still haven't read a conclusive answer to illustrate why trace is a critical element of saponification, rather than a simple indication that it has started. If the batter is mixed well enough and has surely reached emulsion, is trace necessary?

 

[Nevada]

Juiceman succinctly answered "Reaching trace is a necessary step in soaping because if you don't reach the stage where the chemical reaction is taking place, you run the risk of the components you are using separating."

 

[dimitris]

As far as I understand, the chemical reaction starts as soon as you pour your lye into your oils.
I know what Juiceman wrote before, but he hasn't written why this is correct.

 

[MKRainville]

The saponification process begins the moment you add the lye solution to your oils. A light trace is evident when you can feel the batter thickening up. I normally pour at a light trace when I am portioning for swirling multiple colors, then by the time I am pouring into the mold I am at a medium trace. To give myself time to get the oils in with out them turning to soap on a stick. I've never had a problem with them separating, but I do make sure that they are mixed very well. I also make sure my oils are mixed up well way before I put my lye solution in also, to give it a better chance.

 

[MKRainville]

http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapglossary/f/How-To-Affect-Trace-Time-In-Soap-Making.htm

I thought this was pretty good at describing trace. It point blank states "Trace is basically the point at which the soap has thickened and blended enough to have formed a stable emulsion"

"There are soap makers that pour at "very light trace" which may just take a few short blasts of the stick blender to achieve. The soap will still be watery and won't be able to support the tell-tale traditional "dribble" of soap on top of the mix - yet it will still be well mixed enough to not separate. On the other end of the spectrum, there are soap makers who prefer to pour (or scoop) at "heavy trace" which is thick and pudding-like.

Both mixes are fine, and both could have been said to have reached trace."

 

[jenneelk]

IMO and from what I've read and watched.. many call emulsion 'very light trace' or watery trace. Maybe to keep it simple and not introduce new terminology. Idk.
But I use 'emulsion' in my other products and its basically a state where your product is mixed and will not separate if your recipe and production is correct.
Trace it seems is used to ensure that it is completely mixed and used as a guide that gives a visual show since emulsion is harder to see happen. This is just my interpretation from what I've learned and can take from the 'trace' issue.
Many online I see doing emulsion only and don't go to trace. Their bars are fine and they are seasoned soapers.
Maybe sometimes you run the risk of not being correct with going to emulsion only.. It's a risk you take and why most say look for trace. But if u do get a good emulsion it seems that is all u need. Hope that all made sense...

 

[Moody Glenn]

IMO and from what I've read and watched.. many call emulsion 'very light trace' or watery trace. Maybe to keep it simple and not introduce new terminology. Idk.
But I use 'emulsion' in my other products and its basically a state where your product is mixed and will not separate.
Trace it seems is used to ensure that it is completely mixed and used as a guide that gives a visual show since emulsion is harder to see happen. This is just my interpretation from what I've learned and can take from the 'trace' issue.
Many online I see doing emulsion only and don't go to trace. Their bars are fine and they are seasoned soapers.
Maybe sometimes you run the risk of not being correct with going to emulsion only.. It's a risk you take and why most say look for trace. But if u do get a good emulsion it seems that is all u need. Hope that all
Made sense...

I like how you explained this Jen. In the book "Smart Soapmaking" by Anne Watson she discovered that you really don't need to come to actual visual trace but instead the emulsion suddenly increases in temperature (slightly by a few degrees) from its 'normal' blending temp. At this point you can safely pour the eggnog or pancake-like batter into a mold and saponification will go on its merry way. BUT you have to have a thermometer to measure this increased heat. If you poured before this heat increase the emulsion will collapse and separate. So there must be some point that everything is a-OK for full trace to occur.

A great discussion question Dimitris. It sure gives 'the little gray cells' a workout! This reminds me of how to explain how a television works. No idea but whatever it does and how it does it - hopefully - it just works.