What is the difference between liquid soap and shampoo

I've never made liquid soap before, but i've watched a few videos and read a little about it. I have questions! lol

Why do people use both types of lye? Do you have to use both types?
I currently make a cold process pet shampoo bar, and my client wants to switch to liquid soap because it seems to be what everyone wants.
Ive learned that if you use unsaponifibles that you will get a cloudy liquid soap. Im not too concerned with the color, but if you make your liquid soap at 0% superfat, wont all the oils saponify? Do you HAVE to neutralize liquid soap? is this part of the normal process?

I need a recipe for shampoo/liquid soap that is more on the natural side, and my client wants to put neem oil in it. Is this possible with the liquid style? I haven't found any info on neem oil in liquid soap recipes.

Here's a great thread on Liquid Soap. You need KOH to make liquid soap. Shampoo is not liquid soap. The PH is too high for hair or dogs but then so is CP. My vet said never use it on my dogs.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974

It's a lot of reading but so very worth the information.

candicec003 said:

I've never made liquid soap before, but i've watched a few videos and read a little about it. I have questions! lol

Why do people use both types of lye? Do you have to use both types?

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Some use both lyes (mostly KOH with just a little titch of NaOH to help speed things to the paste stage), but the definitive answer to your question is no- you do not have to use both lyes. For what it's worth, most folks (such as myself) only use KOH.

candicec003 said:

I currently make a cold process pet shampoo bar, and my client wants to switch to liquid soap because it seems to be what everyone wants.
Ive learned that if you use unsaponifibles that you will get a cloudy liquid soap. Im not too concerned with the color, but if you make your liquid soap at 0% superfat, wont all the oils saponify?

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Yes, they will all saponify, but remember that unsaponifiable materials by their nature will remain unsaponified regardless of how low the superfat %. That's not to say you can't get a clear soap with unsaponifiable material present, though- because you can. It all depends on how much/many unsaponifiables are present. Also- cloudy soap can also result from using fats with lots of stearic acid in them, such as butters and/or straight-up stearic acid itself.

candicec003 said:

Do you HAVE to neutralize liquid soap? is this part of the normal process?

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With the method I use (there's more than one method of liquid soap-making), I never have to neutralize. If you use the Failor method, though, which employs a severe negative superfat up front- then yes- you'll need to neutralize. But if you use any of the newer methods that many of us here on the forum use- neutralization is completely unnecessary.

candicec003 said:

I need a recipe for shampoo/liquid soap that is more on the natural side, and my client wants to put neem oil in it. Is this possible with the liquid style? I haven't found any info on neem oil in liquid soap recipes.

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To say that there are a lot of mixed opinions over whether 'tis a good thing or not to use lye-based soap (whether liquid or solid) on human hair or animal hair is quite the understatement. I will leave that to the experts, but for what it's worth, lye-based shampoos have ruined many a head of hair over time by slowly damaging the hair at the root level where you can't see the damage right away. Many former pro-lye-based shampooers have over time changed their tune and have become outspoken anti-lye-based shampooers because of how badly the lye-based shampoo ended up damaging their hair over the long haul. Our Carolyn, who is a retired hairdresser can explain it better than I can. Hopefully she will chime in soon.


IrishLass

No lye soaps for hair, read about the hair on this blog ; http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/search?q=hair++soap

candicec003 said:

Why do people use both types of lye? The NaOH boosts lather & thickens.
Do you have to use both types? No.
I currently make a cold process pet shampoo bar, and my client wants to switch to liquid soap. Post your recipe for suggestions for LS.
if you use unsaponifibles that you will get a cloudy liquid soap. A few oils contain unsaponifiables that remain, even with 0% superfat. Olive oil, Avocado oil, cocoa butter come to mind. This is a good thing. Use in the correct amounts for clear results.
Im not too concerned with the color, but if you make your liquid soap at 0% superfat, wont all the oils saponify? Yes, but the unsapped bits remain.
Do you HAVE to neutralize liquid soap? No. But it's a nicer result if you do.
is this part of the normal process? For some, yes.

I need a recipe for shampoo/liquid soap that is more on the natural side, and my client wants to put neem oil in it. Is this possible with the liquid style? I haven't found any info on neem oil in liquid soap recipes.

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I've never used neem in LS. but I'm guessing it would be possible at 1%. Not sure. I would want to know what purpose it serves? Maybe you could use EOs instead?

HTH

Dahila said:

No lye soaps for hair, read about the hair on this blog

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I don't want to start a brouhaha, but I can only speak from my experience. Fully saponified soap contains no lye, whether it's CP, HP, or LS. Also, LS has the advantage of an all-natural shampoo that doesn't contain detergents (and other nasties), which is what gives the commercial shampoo the ability to rinse squeaky clean rather quickly.

I love swiftcraftymonkey, she provides a wonderful service to the bath & body community, but it should be noted that the pH balance of the scalp can be restored with any number of clarifying rinses... lemon juice, vinegar, beer, and my personal favorite, lemon juice & parsley (for shine). End with a water rinse as cool as you can stand. This closes the hairshaft and prevents flyaways.

Oh, I almost forgot your Title question: What is the difference between LS and Shampoo?
Answer: There is no difference. If you go to Dr. Bronner's site, he's been around since the Hippy days and we used his LS for everything... body wash, shampoo, plus cleaning everything! There's a link on his site that tells you how to tackle every cleaning job with his basic castile soap. It's quite amazing. The same is true of the LS I make, altho I'm always trying different oils for different purposes. BTW (lardinator alert) our favorite hair and body wash is made with 50/50 lard/PKO with Peppermint EO for scent. It makes my hubby's white hair shine like the dickens! Which reminds me, we're almost out. I need to go make some!

She meant soap that had been made with lye. Quicker to say "lye soap" than what I typed, but better than just saying "soap" as many people confuse that to include syndets.

ceemoor if you know a bit about hair you would know that hair and high ph (lye soaps) do not agree

Dahila said:

ceemoor if you know a bit about hair you would know that hair and high ph (lye soaps) do not agree

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Agreeing here and to say that there is no difference between a liquid soap and a shampoo is complete and utter baloney (spelling intentional). Shampoos are designed to be lower on the pH scale than lye based soaps and many of them are a great deal gentler than such soaps are.

Liquid soap and shampoo are two different animals. Liquor d Soap ph is too high for hair. There are some that do use it but many of us have tried and it failed terribly causing myself to cut my hair super short due to the damage. Many others here have suffered the same fate. It's not pretty

Neem oil is good at repelling pests and insects, and is good for skin and hair, thats why i use it in the pet shampoo bars. My recipe for this bar soap is as follows at 7% superfat
10.50 oz-76 degree organic coconut oil
10.50 oz- cold pressed organic olive oil
8.40 oz cold pressed grapeseed oil
5.04 oz neem oil
4.20 oz raw organic shea butter
3.36 oz castor oil
1.25 oz lemongrass essential oil
5.65 oz sodium hydroxide
13.86 oz distilled water
4 tsp diatomaceous earth
2 tsp kaolin clay
This recipe goes through gel phase and the ph level of this soap is 7

candicec003 said:

Neem oil is good at repelling pests and insects, and is good for skin and hair, thats why i use it in the pet shampoo bars. My recipe for this bar soap is as follows at 7% superfat
10.50 oz-76 degree organic coconut oil
10.50 oz- cold pressed organic olive oil
8.40 oz cold pressed grapeseed oil
5.04 oz neem oil
4.20 oz raw organic shea butter
3.36 oz castor oil
1.25 oz lemongrass essential oil
5.65 oz sodium hydroxide
13.86 oz distilled water
4 tsp diatomaceous earth
2 tsp kaolin clay
This recipe goes through gel phase and the ph level of this soap is 7

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The ph can't be 7 or it won't be soap. Soap is 8.5-11 ph. And need is great for a lot of things including break out prone skin.

Its between 7 and 8 ph level. Not sure what you mean when you say it cant be soap if it has a 7 ph level.

It would break/separate.

candicec003 said:

Its between 7 and 8 ph level. Not sure what you mean when you say it cant be soap if it has a 7 ph level.

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If you lower a soaps pH too low it will break down into a mushy mess. I am not sure how you are measuring the pH, but pH strips pressed against the bar does not give you a real reading. You need to make a 1% solution of soap to distilled water and then take a reading. Same with a pH meter.

Dr. Kevin Dunn has done extensive laboratory experiments, and has never been able to acidify (lower the pH) of soap. YOu can see the results of his experiments here:

http://cavemanchemistry.com/scisoap/lectures.html

look at the lecture HSCG2015 that he gave at the Soap Guild conference in 2015.

Liquid soap and shampoo is the same to me. I shampoo my hair with Dr. Bronner's glycerin peppermint liquid soap.

kchaystack said:

If you lower a soaps pH too low it will break down into a mushy mess. I am not sure how you are measuring the pH, but pH strips pressed against the bar does not give you a real reading. You need to make a 1% solution of soap to distilled water and then take a reading. Same with a pH meter.

Dr. Kevin Dunn has done extensive laboratory experiments, and has never been able to acidify (lower the pH) of soap. YOu can see the results of his experiments here:

http://cavemanchemistry.com/scisoap/lectures.html

look at the lecture HSCG2015 that he gave at the Soap Guild conference in 2015.

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It doesn't break or separate. I use distilled water and lather the soap up and test with PH test strips. It reads 7-8 PH every time.

candicec003 said:

It doesn't break or separate. I use distilled water and lather the soap up and test with PH test strips. It reads 7-8 PH every time.

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That isn't a good test because your technique is flawed. Take 1g of soap, dissolve it in 99g of water, and then measure it.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52371

kchaystack said:

That isn't a good test because your technique is flawed. Take 1g of soap, dissolve it in 99g of water, and then measure it.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52371

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Ok i will try this thank you. Ill post what i find out

Your soap is a least 10 Ph , strips are INaccurate, Dogs are even more sensitive to high ph than people, we lose the shiny healthy hair, They get infections and irritations, skin infection in dogs will take a lot of $$$$ out of your pocket