Why is soap alkaline?

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And what happens if you have ready reacted liquid soap wanting to make it neutral? The same, as the ions from the salt are separated when it is disolved in water?

That's my understanding. It's why liquid soap books and other resources warn to be careful not to add too much citric or boric acid while neutralizing the soap--if you add too much it starts breaking the salts apart, clouding the soap.
 
Don't confuse a SALT, in the chemistry sense of the word, with an acid or a base. When you use citric ACID or boric ACID to adjust the pH -- that is neutralization. When you add table SALT (sodium chloride, NaCl), there is no "neutralizing" going on. What you're doing when you "salt out" a fully saponified soap is you are using salt to reduce the solubility of the soap in a water-based solution until it precipitates out of solution.

A lot of water + a little bit of soap = a true solution in the chemist's sense of the term, meaning a mixture of individual molecules of soap dissolved in water
Begin to add salt -> the soap molecules begin to coalesce into larger droplets to form a colloid of soap-in-water. When a soap-water mixture becomes colloidal, the mixture becomes thicker and may become cloudy.
Add enough salt -> the soap precipitates into a more or less solid soap curd. The curd is a colloid of water-in-soap. The liquid solution left after the soap curd is removed is a solution of water, salt, glycerin, any excess lye, and soap.
 
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I "heart" Dee Anna. Cruising molecules at the saponification party, I love it! I'll never think of my soap in the same way again.

If we click the "Follow" button on DeeAnna's profile do we have to wear robes or have to show up at dinner handing out pamphlets? Do we get cool names or a "compound"? Trip to central America?
 
Hmmm, well, Boyago, my "followers" actually get a pair of dorky polyester high-water pants, a white plastic pocket protector with a mechanical pencil and separate eraser included, and really geeky glasses. :)

Unless you qualify for my super-duper package, and then I'll throw in a full-size vintage slide rule complete with leatherette holster and belt loop -- but you have to actually know how to use it to qualify!

http://www.starpulse.com/news/Dee_Doyle/2009/06/02/everything_geeky_the_meaning_of_geek_aam
 
I sound so much less sexy when you describe me.

What's a slide ruler? Is that something used to measure cassette tapes? Must be one of those ancient inventions like fire or Sky lab. Actually I was talking to a friend the other day who's brother was an engineer and growing up he actually had the leather belt case for his slide ruler and rocked it all the time.

Anyway back to soap. I was reading a blog that was basically saying that there would never be a decent shampoo bar because the PH of bar soap was inherently too high and the difference between human hair and bar soap was just too great and damaged the hair. Sounded like BS to my gut but is there any validity to this? By this logic it would seem that no one had clean or healthy hair before detergents??
 
So, to reiterate for those who are not cool enough to don pocket protectors and flood pants (ie. me!), after saponification has occured, the pH could be raised to a certain degree (pH 7?) but after that point, the addition of the acid would break apart the bonds formed during saponification so we'd have a soupy mess? (technical term)
 
I just got done reading a thread on DDS (dreaded drag marks) and snorted a noseful of cookie when I tried to chew and laugh at the same time. Nearly did it again on this thread. What a lunch hour!

Anyways, to show what a dinosaur I am, I took one of the last slide rule classes taught at Iowa State. I had to buy a huge Versalog slide rule for the class. (To save the tiny shred of self respect I still have, I won't mention the precise year.) Yes, I was a huge geek in those days -- I confess I put my slide rule holster on my belt because I didn't dare lose or damage it -- no money for any stupidity or frivolity in my undergrad days. And when I did scrape together enough $$ to buy an engineering calculator, it was, of course, a Hewlett Packard, the best I could afford. No self-respecting engineering student bought anything less. It was a major loss of geek points to own a TI (Texas Instruments). And, yes, the calculator case hung on my belt because I didn't dare lose or damage that either.

And, yes, anyways back to soap. Shampoo bars to be specific. I can't speak about the chemistry, but I can speak about my hair.

I make a shampoo/face bar that has zero cleansing and it does a nice job of getting my hair clean without drying my scalp. (For the record, my regular bath soaps have 8 to 12 for a cleansing score, so there's not a huge difference between a face/shampoo bar and a regular bath bar in my house.) Even using a zero cleansing recipe, however, the soap was making my shoulder length, fine hair gradually more harsh feeling and tangly, especially the drier ends. After several months of using shampoo bars, I was about ready to get my hair cut really short to get rid of the dry ends and switch to store-bought shampoo. But I thought, before I did that, I would try the acid rinse thing. It couldn't make matters any worse and (edit) would avoid major fireworks with my dear husband who would prefer my hair to be longer rather than shorter. (end edit)

It really does work. My hair went from rough and dry to much smoother and softer feeling after just a few treatments. I now use my shampoo bars happily, followed by a dollop of hair conditioner (home made of course) that I've dusted with a tiny pinch of dry citric acid powder (canning acidifier, Vitamin C). I let the conditioner/acid do its magic for about a minute and give my hair a thorough rinse.

Vinegar (acetic acid) or lemon juice (citric acid) work as well as dry citric acid powder. I'm just not fond of messing with bottles of vinegar or squeezing lemons. I tried ascorbic acid (Fruit Fresh) but it is not nearly as effective as the others, so I can't recommend it. Regardless of the acid, a little bit is all you need -- too much is just wasteful and the excess acid can irritate the scalp.

I question the idea of ~permanent~ hair damage from shampooing with lye soap. The acid rinse obviously reversed the trend for me without a major haircut needed. Also, my husband with much shorter hair doesn't bother to do an acid rinse. His hair feels fine without it. I'd guess hair that is fine, permed, colored, or not cut often may benefit more than hair that is coarser or is trimmed frequently. But that's just a guess.

You are right, Boyago -- lye soap was the only shampoo in my mother's and grandmother's day, but I also know that gals back then also used vinegar or lemon juice rinses to help their hair stay shiny and soft. So I think there's something to this idea.
 
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"...saponification has occured, the pH could be raised to a certain degree (pH 7?) but after that point, the addition of the acid would break apart the bonds formed during saponification so we'd have a soupy mess? (technical term) ..."

Yes, Madam, you are basically correct, with the caveat that pH is lowered by adding acid, not raised. The pH at which the soap will begin to break down into a soupy mess (definitely a technical term!) will be something above 8, depending on the fatty acids in the recipe. No lye soap will ever have a pH of 7 and still be lye soap.
 
And when I did scrape together enough $$ to buy an engineering calculator, it was, of course, a Hewlett Packard, the best I could afford. No self-respecting engineering student bought anything less. It was a major loss of geek points to own a TI (Texas Instruments).

I have experience of HP, Casio and TI graphical calculators. I fully agree with you about TI.

I had a TI89, but I noticed the only thing it was good at was to play Tetris, which would be a waste of time. All the real stuff required way too many key presses comparing to other calculators. It had the features there, but way too far away for to easily reach.

The TI I quickly sold because of the disapointment. Both HP and Casio do make excellent calculators, but I found Casio to be the better of those two. It probably have slightly less features than HP, but they are very easy to reach.
 
I had a casio graphing calculator. I believe everyone else had TI, at least I was the only one with casio. So the direct instructions on key presses from the teacher never applied to my calculator... Was a pain.
 
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I had a casio graphing calculator. I believe everyone else had TI, at least I was the only one with casio. So the direct instructions on key presses from the teacher never applied to my calculator... Was a pain.

I was in the same situation. However I think it was really good. I had to read the manual and I ended up knowing exactly everything about my calculator. I was really efficient with it. The other pupils barely knew what the teacher had shown them. Useful knowledge comes by studying on your own. The whole experience surely helped you later in your life when you had to solve something on you own regardless if it had to do with math or not. Many are not capable of reading manuals anymore.

I'm working with computers and I often end up reading manuals.
 
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Hmmm, well, in the days I'm talking about, TI and HP were an engineering student's ONLY choices. I believe I first had an HP 25C if I remember right. I could barely afford it because it cost in the $300 range in its day -- that was a LOT of $$ for a starving college student. I eventually upgraded to an HP 15C, and I still have and like that one. It's basically an engineering version of the financial 12C that is still being sold. I also have a much newer complicated HP graphing calculator that can take memory sticks pre-programmed for different disciplines (can't remember the model number). I used that one in my very short career as a land surveyor, but I never got comfortable with it.

But isn't this one just the ultimate geek accessory? From 1977, comes the amazing HP 01 calculator watch: http://www.hpmuseum.org/01ssteel.jpg

When I was teaching math and science in the local community college, I remember dealing with the TI vs Casio thing. It was as awkward for the teacher as it was for the students. Ugh.
 
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Awesome explanation DeeAnna, as always. I actually understood all of that! Finally!:clap:

DeeAnna, I will second The EG's suggestion to do something with these super helpful explanations! I actually think you should collect them together into an e-book. Something like, "Soapmaking Science for Regular People". And please, please, please make it available for Kindle!
 
I have read in a few places that the alkaline nature of soap is part of why shaving soap works as well as it does to soften the beard as well as lubricate the shave. So there may be something to the idea of alkaline shampoo possibly damaging the cuticle of the hair. However, like DeeAnn pointed out, it can be reversed, and seems to be less of a concern the closer one is to the source of the oils.
 
Very interesting, Songwind. I wasn't aware of the idea that the alkalinity can enhance the function of a shaving soap. I'm really glad you pointed that out! Hmmmmm.....

As far as collecting my stuff and putting it in a blog or book or something ... okay, I'm working on it. :)
 
I also recommend saving your explanations, at least so you don't have to re-type them all yourself lol. I've got a folder full of dog/cat/horse related stuff so I didn't have to retype everytime. I'd just copy and paste, then read through it making relevant changes for the forum or email I was doing.

I bought my calculator in high school, I can't remember if I'd needed it for pre-calc or not until AP calc. I do remember having to pay for it myself which sucked, and I ended up going with the cheapest I could find lol. Then I wasn't an engineering student, pre-med, but Purdue threw me in the engineering calc courses. OMG. Glad I wasn't an engineering student... haha. It super sucked because when I was at the west Laf campus taking calc, it was quite a few years since high school and classes at Purdue NC. So I'd forgotten how to do a lot of simple math, much less calculus. Plus in my first semester I was ALSO thrown in biology with bio major students.
 

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