What would cause this?

[math ace]

My neighbor and I use the same recipe to make CP soap.

When I make the soap at my house, it takes longer (24 hours longer) to come out of the mold, but my color is good.

When she makes soap at her house it comes out of the mold quicker but has ash (I think it is ash).

Differences:
She runs her a/c about 5 - 8 degrees colder than I do.

She puts her molds in a stryo cooler for the first 24 hours. I sit mine on a heating pad on the lowest setting for 2 hours covered with towels. Then leave it like that, but heating pad off, for 2 days.

Why can't I remove my soaps sooner?

What is causing the discoloration issues with my neighbor's soap?

 

[SoapySuds]

There are other factors that could play into this.

Are you using the same equipment? Same brand, same size, same type?

Do you both weigh out to oz, gr, lbs,? Do you use the same scale? How are you using your scale?

How are you storing your lye? Do you both store your lye the exact same way? Do you weigh out your lye in grams, ounces? Do you master batch your lye? How do you store your master batch?

Are you both using distilled water from the same source? Are you using tap water?

Are you measuring out your oils exactly? Are you heating your oils up? Hard oils only? Liquid oils as well? Are you adding the oils and the lye mixture at the same temperature?

Are you stirring evenly and consistently until trace? Do you both pour at the same consistency?

Are you both using the exact same colorants? Scents? Etc?

Those are just the beginning of what could possibly be different.

Other factors include: humidity, ambient temperature, etc.

 

[math ace]

Are you using the same equipment? Same brand, same size, same type?

Do you both weigh out to oz, gr, lbs,? Do you use the same scale? How are you using your scale?

How are you storing your lye? Do you both store your lye the exact same way? Do you weigh out your lye in grams, ounces? Do you master batch your lye? How do you store your master batch?
QUOTE]

Yes.. Same equipment and scale.
We weigh in ounces.
She has used my lye to make soap. So, yes stored the same way. We don't master batch the lye.

I should point out that this has been a consistent difference between our soaps. It isn't a one time thing.

There are other factors that could play into this.
. . .

Are you both using distilled water from the same source? Are you using tap water?

Are you measuring out your oils exactly? Are you heating your oils up? Hard oils only? Liquid oils as well? Are you adding the oils and the lye mixture at the same temperature?

Are you stirring evenly and consistently until trace? Do you both pour at the same consistency?

We both use distilled water.
Yes, we are measuring the oils exactly. We heat the hard oils and blend to with the softer oils. We wait for the lye water to get down to around 120. Then we heat the oils to close to the lye temps.

When we pour the batter, we are within 20 degrees of each other.

We do stir / blend until trace is reached. There is no way we can confirm same trace. We've used different fragrances over several different batches and had different acceleration issues. However, she has consistently had ash and I've consistently had to wait an extra 24 hours to remove my soap from the mold.

We both color with Micas..

 

[SoapySuds]

Have you watched your friend make soap? Observed her carefully to see how she is following the recipe?

I would guess there is a difference in measuring happening.

The other option is for you to make one at her place and measure as you would but do what she does in placing it in the cooler, etc. and for her to make hers at your house, if you think you are both doing it exactly the same.

My suspicion is that one of you is measuring ounces of water and one of you is weighing water.

I know in cooking, often the same recipe looks different between chefs because of technique or a slight change in ingredients. It doesn’t take much.

 

[Karmic]

What Soapy said. I'd love to see you guys do an experiment and soap together at each other's houses and see what happens. That would have been my first thought if it happened to me. Have you guys ever soaped together? Or you just do it at your own place and compare results

 

[math ace]

Have you watched your friend make soap? Observed her carefully to see how she is following the recipe?

Well, I haven't watched her, BUT she watched me make soap twice before she made her first batch solo. So, I know she is measuring everything with the scale.
Not only did I provide her with the recipe, but step by step instructions. We followed those instructions when we made soap at my house the two times before she took the instructions to her house to try to make soap on her own.

Things that could be variables are...

1.) the cooler vs the heating pad.
2.) Her house is cooler than mine, but I've made soap in the winter months when my house was cooler and not had the ash show up.
3.) We could be pouring at different traces but that shouldn't result in ash. Thinner traces are used for spins swirls, which I've done and not had ash.
4.) We could be pouring at different temperatures, but they would be within 20 degrees of each other. I watch a ton of you tube videos where people soap at "room temperature" and don't get ash.

So, I guess I will have to watch the next time she makes soap and see if I can spot the issue.

What Soapy said. I'd love to see you guys do an experiment and soap together at each other's houses and see what happens. That would have been my first thought if it happened to me. Have you guys ever soaped together? Or you just do it at your own place and compare results

Yep, we have soaped together at my house. I "tutored" her on CP soaping once I got the hang of it. LOL.. I introduced her to melt and pour a year ago. Now, I am introducing her to CP soap making.

 

[Obsidian]

Are you using the same molds? Do either of you cover your soap with cling wrap before insulating?

Ash is usually formed on soap that doesn't gel or saponifies slower.
I'm curious if either of you know how long it takes before your soaps are in full gel or how hot they are getting?

If I was you, I would swap insulating techniques and see what happens.

 

[math ace]

Are you using the same molds? Do either of you cover your soap with cling wrap before insulating?

Ash is usually formed on soap that doesn't gel or saponifies slower.
I'm curious if either of you know how long it takes before your soaps are in full gel or how hot they are getting?

If I was you, I would swap insulating techniques and see what happens.

We both use cling wrap. However, I think she wasn't wrapping hers as tightly as I normally do. So, on her next round of soap making she is going to make sure she wraps her molds really good.

We are do soaping as a hobby. So, our batches are normally small, 1 to 2 lbs loafs. Our loaf molds are the same.
If I am testing fragrances, I'll use individual molds that are 2.5 to 3.5 ounces per bar. I've never had an issue with ash in any of my molds.

I've hit my loaf with the temperature gun, but I haven't ever kept track of the temps. Usually, I am just checking to see how cool the soap is because I don't try to unmold it until it reaches room temperature. How will I know when the soaps are in full gel?

I like the idea of swapping insulating techniques. If her wrapping the mold better doesn't get rid of the issue, then I'll try using her cooler.
If I suddenly start having an ash issue then we will know that I've found a cause of at least some of her ash issues!

 

[cmzaha]

I find that trace can contribute to ash. When I pour at emulision my soaps will tend to ash and not when I pour at a light to med trace. Gelling versus non-gel can result in ash. At one time I did not gel my soaps and they would almost always get ash. Also, some fragrances will ash while others do not. There are just a lot of variables that can happen.

 

[math ace]

I find that trace can contribute to ash. When I pour at emulision my soaps will tend to ash and not when I pour at a light to med trace. Gelling versus non-gel can result in ash. At one time I did not gel my soaps and they would almost always get ash. Also, some fragrances will ash while others do not. There are just a lot of variables that can happen.

She is getting a gel. The soap is nicely colored after removing from the mold.

She is getting trace, more than just emulsion. She blended it too long the first time and had a really thick trace. She did less Stick blending on the rest of her batches.

She has used 5 different Fragrances so far and gotten ash with all five. Three of the five scents I've already soapped with and did not have ash issues.

This is the Front of one of her Bars of soap. It was an orange and white Mica colored soap.

Nice color, clearly went through gel.

Back of soap is all ashy.

 

[SoaperForLife]

For what it's worth, after she cuts her soap (or unmolds it), she can cover the tops with saran for a few days and she won't have ash. Lay the bottoms on paper towels. Kevin Dunn attributes ash to the following: Appears wherever lye meets air: • —lye spills left to “dry” • —soap made with excess lye • —raw soap left uncovered • —soap un-molded too soon

 

[math ace]

@SoaperForLife

We've done a pH test on the soaps and too much lye is not the issue.

She isn't unmolding too soon. There is none of the stickiness that is associated with soap that is still cooking. Her soaps have a smooth texture after unmolding.

As far as covering with additional wrap after unmolding,. That doesn't sound like something that most of the soapping community is doing. We want to figure out what is going wrong so that she can soap like everyone else.

I think we are dealing with

1. Soap exposed to air because she isn't wrapping it good enough.

Or

2. Soap cooling somehow... However, since she is going through gel, I'm doubting this one.

I guess it is time to do some experimenting!

 

[Becky1024]

I like the idea of swapping your insulating methods, or you could both monitor the temperature of your soap as it is insulating. I suspect her's is getting hotter because I sometimes see soda ash when I CPOP but never when I don't.

 

[penelopejane]

@SoaperForLife

We've done a pH test on the soaps and too much lye is not the issue.

She isn't unmolding too soon. There is none of the stickiness that is associated with soap that is still cooking. Her soaps have a smooth texture after unmolding.

As far as covering with additional wrap after unmolding,. That doesn't sound like something that most of the soapping community is doing. We want to figure out what is going wrong so that she can soap like everyone else.

I think we are dealing with

1. Soap exposed to air because she isn't wrapping it good enough.

Or

2. Soap cooling somehow... However, since she is going through gel, I'm doubting this one.

I guess it is time to do some experimenting!

pH test won't tell you if there is too much lye. High lye in a recipe doesn't mean it is lye heavy or will zap.

Unmolding too soon - in cavity molds if you leave them for a week (well passed the sticky stage) covered with saran wrap the air will be excluded and a lot of people find this prevents soda ash. Isopropyl alcohol does the same thing - excluding air from the surface. Use minimally or it can cause other problems.

Pouring at thicker trace helps some people avoid ash.

Cleaning molds really thoroughly with IPA or NaOH each time of use also helps.

Soaping warmer with 31% lye concentration or higher helps some people avoid ash.

 

[SoaperForLife]

I believe that she is getting ash because she is un-molding her soaps sooner than you.View media item 2012

I will try to upload a photo of a recent soap batch that I made in a silicone column mold for ED. In order to get it out of the mold, I always freeze it first for close to 24 hours. Before that, I encourage gel by wrapping the mold with towels. I dislike partial gel so I only do small batches of this one and like I said, I wrap the mold. Once removed from the mold, I know that I will get ash and because it will also condensate, I wrap the soap with a paper towel and stand it upright on another paper towel. As you can see, the top of the soap was not completely covered by the wrapping and ash did happen there but no where else (including the unwrapped bottom). After a day or two, I will unwrap the column and not have to worry about ash happening.

Sorry the first graphic wasn't supposed to appear in the post...

 

[math ace]

pH test won't tell you if there is too much lye. High lye in a recipe doesn't mean it is lye heavy or will zap.

What Does the pH test tell you?

 

[penelopejane]

It tells you the pH of the soap.

 

[math ace]

@penelopejane

I thought high lye would effect the pH of the soap.

Are you saying that lye doesn't effect the soaps ph?

 

[Nanette]

@penelopejane

I thought high lye would effect the pH of the soap.

Are you saying that lye doesn't effect the soaps ph?

The ph of soap will be high with lye, sometimes a high reading indicated the lye hasnt been fully saponified and just needs more time, other times in can mean soap is lye heavy and wont be safe ever....ph is not a good way to judge the lye "value" in soap. Because it changes as soap cures...and you cant tell if a soap has lye pockets by just testing the surface ph.....

 

[math ace]

@penelopejane ,

So, this is what I hear you saying, The Ph test could give a False NEGATIVE. If the test says the soap is high in pH, then it is high in LYE. Now, that could be a short term high or a forever high depending on where the soap is in the cure stage. If the test says the pH is OK, then the soap MIGHT be OK, but there could be lye pockets inside the soap.

My thoughts are since we are dealing with ASH on the surface of a soap, a pH test would be a reliable way of determining if that ash was from a pH issue.

Since you don't recommend pH test, what how do you recommend determining if a soap is lye heavy?