Brilliantly put, thank you! You're so much more educated on the matter than I am and I appreciate your sharing all this!
What can I use in place of palm products?
- Thread starter Marya
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While this wasn't written to me specifically, and I respect your feelings, I just want to point out that if someone from another country had a legitimate complaint about my country (as do many), I don't think I would take it personally, simply because the U.S. has many faults - just as we do strengths. I love my country but I don't mind if others don't (and recognize our faults), you know? Perhaps - not being aware of everything going on over there and the dynamics between the two countries - it's an "apples and oranges" kind of thing and the attitude of someone from the U.S. isn't a fair comparison. If that's the case, I apologize.
I am mainly posting in this thread so I can see it in 'my replies' because I don't have much to add except that I agree with most of you. I don't use palm because I don't have to, and there's a lot of indicators that it's bad. If it was a staple food for me or something I might still use it, but to slightly improve the hardness of my soap it's not worth it for me.
This is a problem that won't be solved until the politic and general views across the entire world have changed and everyone starts realizing that some (or most) ecosystems are worth more to us whole than the revenue they might create if we destroy them and farm there. There are even ways to put the ecosystem services - the useful things for humans that ecosystems provide - into monetary value, but I think the main problem there is that the monetary value of an intact ecosystem is shared by the entire population, whereas a farmer destroying the ecosystem and exploiting it will be the only one sharing in that money... so to the farmer it might seem like a good deal, especially if you can't see the consequences like increased risk of flooding, drought, pollution effects etcetera.
This is a problem that won't be solved until the politic and general views across the entire world have changed and everyone starts realizing that some (or most) ecosystems are worth more to us whole than the revenue they might create if we destroy them and farm there. There are even ways to put the ecosystem services - the useful things for humans that ecosystems provide - into monetary value, but I think the main problem there is that the monetary value of an intact ecosystem is shared by the entire population, whereas a farmer destroying the ecosystem and exploiting it will be the only one sharing in that money... so to the farmer it might seem like a good deal, especially if you can't see the consequences like increased risk of flooding, drought, pollution effects etcetera.
StarBrown,
I won't give examples that prove I for one am not into trends (e.g. I'd be a _fill in the blank_ if I were a trend-follower) lest I insult someone, but let me assure you I don't rant about things I don't wholeheartedly believe in. That would be pathetic. I'm a lot of things but a hipster (and cool-aid drinker) I am not. Even to a fault, I'd say.
If you read or re-read Saswede's comments, she gives examples of why it is thought that palm oil is in fact NOT sustainable as most people thought. In other words, I seriously question whether the palm oil you use is truly sustainable. Granted that's a bold assertion and "is fighting words" but then I think it's you who put up your dukes, not me. I wasn't attacking anyone and I don't think I'm better than anyone else here, sheesh. We all have our reasons for doing what we do, and I believe I have the right to inquire about palm oil substitutes as well as share why I'm concerned, regardless of whether it might make some people feel defensive. I use a lot of products in my life on a regular basis that in theory I shouldn't. I'm pretty sure we'll all hypocrites to some degree. I don't see how on earth it would be unfair to wholesale write off palm oil though (not that one can, completely, as again it's in just about everything!), though I would never write off a PERSON who uses palm oil in their soaps or in anything else for crying out loud! That would be pretty unreasonable, wouldn't it? I hope this issue of unsustainability (is that a word?!) gets resolved and that the small farmers can keep food on their tables. I don't doubt that they'll continue producing palm one way or the other.
As for your irritation about people who tout that their products are palm-free, that just seems silly to me. People are different and want different things and for those who are against buying palm when it can be helped, I think it's fantastic that some offer palm-free products! How can this be a problem to you? You assume they're "touting," furthermore, which sounds so snippy and defensive. Defensive people irritate me, lol. How do you know they're one-upping you? I mean maybe they ARE, I don't know (I don't sell these products but just do it for fun - so there may be a competitive component that I can't relate to). But you don't know that people are being mean-spirited - you're just assuming. And if they're making a "better" product (if all they're saying about palm oil is true), how can you blame them for wanting that recognition? I'm sure there are way more soap-buyers who don't give a rat's patootie whether or not there's palm in it than those that do. Would you be one-upping anyone if you said that your product uses sustainable palm rather than just plain ol' palm (assuming there's truly a difference)? If I were to use tallow from free-range animals in order to avoid the animal cruelty associated with palm (though cruelty is an understatement), would I be some sort of one-upping touter for sharing that my tallow come from a free-range farm? I think that's a benefit and selling point for many and is worth sharing. On the other hand, I'd be evil to vegans. There's something for everyone (and something to avoid, for many).
Ok - ugh - now I'M getting off my soapbox (for now)!! :silent: Sorry for being defensive about defensiveness.
I won't give examples that prove I for one am not into trends (e.g. I'd be a _fill in the blank_ if I were a trend-follower) lest I insult someone, but let me assure you I don't rant about things I don't wholeheartedly believe in. That would be pathetic. I'm a lot of things but a hipster (and cool-aid drinker) I am not. Even to a fault, I'd say.
If you read or re-read Saswede's comments, she gives examples of why it is thought that palm oil is in fact NOT sustainable as most people thought. In other words, I seriously question whether the palm oil you use is truly sustainable. Granted that's a bold assertion and "is fighting words" but then I think it's you who put up your dukes, not me. I wasn't attacking anyone and I don't think I'm better than anyone else here, sheesh. We all have our reasons for doing what we do, and I believe I have the right to inquire about palm oil substitutes as well as share why I'm concerned, regardless of whether it might make some people feel defensive. I use a lot of products in my life on a regular basis that in theory I shouldn't. I'm pretty sure we'll all hypocrites to some degree. I don't see how on earth it would be unfair to wholesale write off palm oil though (not that one can, completely, as again it's in just about everything!), though I would never write off a PERSON who uses palm oil in their soaps or in anything else for crying out loud! That would be pretty unreasonable, wouldn't it? I hope this issue of unsustainability (is that a word?!) gets resolved and that the small farmers can keep food on their tables. I don't doubt that they'll continue producing palm one way or the other.
As for your irritation about people who tout that their products are palm-free, that just seems silly to me. People are different and want different things and for those who are against buying palm when it can be helped, I think it's fantastic that some offer palm-free products! How can this be a problem to you? You assume they're "touting," furthermore, which sounds so snippy and defensive. Defensive people irritate me, lol. How do you know they're one-upping you? I mean maybe they ARE, I don't know (I don't sell these products but just do it for fun - so there may be a competitive component that I can't relate to). But you don't know that people are being mean-spirited - you're just assuming. And if they're making a "better" product (if all they're saying about palm oil is true), how can you blame them for wanting that recognition? I'm sure there are way more soap-buyers who don't give a rat's patootie whether or not there's palm in it than those that do. Would you be one-upping anyone if you said that your product uses sustainable palm rather than just plain ol' palm (assuming there's truly a difference)? If I were to use tallow from free-range animals in order to avoid the animal cruelty associated with palm (though cruelty is an understatement), would I be some sort of one-upping touter for sharing that my tallow come from a free-range farm? I think that's a benefit and selling point for many and is worth sharing. On the other hand, I'd be evil to vegans. There's something for everyone (and something to avoid, for many).
Ok - ugh - now I'M getting off my soapbox (for now)!! :silent: Sorry for being defensive about defensiveness.
Saswede
Well-Known Member
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the palm oil issue is not straightforward .... And as we can see from some of the responses already, it's also an emotive issue, probably because of the link with loss of orangutan habitat. So I tried very hard to present both sides of the palm oil story, because if I feel that if I could be absolutely sure that the oil that is labeled sustainable truly was sustainable I'd probably try palm oil too.
The issue is not a new, trendy one that people are getting in on - there have been activists trying to prevent deforestation, specifically in Indonesia, for many, many years, and RSPO was established in 2001 to try to improve the sustainability of palm production. But even the RSPO CEO has recently acknowledged that progress is slow, and that more needs to be done. Regarding the African and South American producers, they produce a relatively small proportion of the worlds palm oil - with the latest figures on the Green Palm website saying that Indonesia and Malaysia still produce around 85%. (And west Africa, where the palm is grown in Africa, is a net importer of palm oil - so I doubt that much African palm oil it's finding its way into the US and EU.)
My experience from living in France is that there is growing concern amongst consumers here about the environmental impact of palm oil, resulting in increasing pressure on many large companies to change their formulas of popular food and cosmetic products to develop palm-free alternatives. So I would definitely want to reassure people who'd like to use my soap that I don't use palm oil (as many soapers in France do).
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The issue is not a new, trendy one that people are getting in on - there have been activists trying to prevent deforestation, specifically in Indonesia, for many, many years, and RSPO was established in 2001 to try to improve the sustainability of palm production. But even the RSPO CEO has recently acknowledged that progress is slow, and that more needs to be done. Regarding the African and South American producers, they produce a relatively small proportion of the worlds palm oil - with the latest figures on the Green Palm website saying that Indonesia and Malaysia still produce around 85%. (And west Africa, where the palm is grown in Africa, is a net importer of palm oil - so I doubt that much African palm oil it's finding its way into the US and EU.)
My experience from living in France is that there is growing concern amongst consumers here about the environmental impact of palm oil, resulting in increasing pressure on many large companies to change their formulas of popular food and cosmetic products to develop palm-free alternatives. So I would definitely want to reassure people who'd like to use my soap that I don't use palm oil (as many soapers in France do).
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Hi Marya. You don't need to apologize. I actually don't mind people pointing the faults of my country. And yes, the palm oil plantation is full of problems. I try to use coconut oil as much as possible myself, also because coconut oil producers and farmers are struggling. I might be a touch sensitive because 1) the wording of the complaint i.e pesky. 2) the relationship between our countries hasn't been smooth for many reasons which isn't appropriate to discussed here. I apologize if I come across too harsh.
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It wasn't my intention to come off as being defensive or in "attack" mode. And it was certainly not my intention to attack you or knock your inquiries about palm subs. (Actually, I didn't ascribe you any blame or fault. Just voiced my frustrations with this new "movement" against palm oil. And I say "movement" because every few years, there is some great concern that comes about and then fades away. Remember when it was all about fair trade, then it was all about cruelty-free, etc. There's always a hot issue, despite actual relevance, that's in the forefront and then fades to an afterthought.) It just rubs me wrong that a lot of people (not you in particular) make palm oil out to be the bad guy--just because of what's going on in Southeast Asia. And that's really what it is. A bad situation in one region has cast dispersion on all the world's palm oil. And people buying into this, without even considering other sources, it seems like they're just "jumping on the bandwagon." My irritation with people who use "palm-free" as a claim stems from the fact that it is a false issue. And people who use that claim are insinuating that their product has a more favorable attribute; when in fact it doesn't. (It's not like labeling something Vegan or nut-free.) If it weren't meant to be a "one up" on the droves of people that use palm, why even mention it. That would be like me advertising that my soap is Pecan Oil-free; there's nothing wrong with Pecan Oil, I just don't use it and I don't need to make a claim about it. Palm oil itself is not the issue, it is the environmental damage that some producers are causing with "slash & burn" deforestation of orangutan habitats. So once consumers started seeing "palm-free" on products, they assumed that palm oil must be bad for you and, thus, products containing it are hazardous. And that is not true. If one were to write off ALL palm oil, based on that--it might not be unfair, just uninformed.
West African Palm Oil, which is what I use, is readily available in the United States; it is generally safe and sustainable (harvested from existing palm groves). If you are using West African palm, you can be fairly sure that it is responsibly produced. And you can know what you are getting if you get it from the source or connected supplier.
To purport that one is on the "right side" of the "issue" by not using Palm Oil at all, is really disingenuous. If you don't want to use palm, then don't. But for goodness sake, stop insinuating that you are doing something special.
Keep calm & carry on.
West African Palm Oil, which is what I use, is readily available in the United States; it is generally safe and sustainable (harvested from existing palm groves). If you are using West African palm, you can be fairly sure that it is responsibly produced. And you can know what you are getting if you get it from the source or connected supplier.
To purport that one is on the "right side" of the "issue" by not using Palm Oil at all, is really disingenuous. If you don't want to use palm, then don't. But for goodness sake, stop insinuating that you are doing something special.
Keep calm & carry on.
StarBrown,
I won't give examples that prove I for one am not into trends (e.g. I'd be a _fill in the blank_ if I were a trend-follower) lest I insult someone, but let me assure you I don't rant about things I don't wholeheartedly believe in. That would be pathetic. I'm a lot of things but a hipster (and cool-aid drinker) I am not. Even to a fault, I'd say.
If you read or re-read Saswede's comments, she gives examples of why it is thought that palm oil is in fact NOT sustainable as most people thought. In other words, I seriously question whether the palm oil you use is truly sustainable. Granted that's a bold assertion and "is fighting words" but then I think it's you who put up your dukes, not me. I wasn't attacking anyone and I don't think I'm better than anyone else here, sheesh. We all have our reasons for doing what we do, and I believe I have the right to inquire about palm oil substitutes as well as share why I'm concerned, regardless of whether it might make some people feel defensive. I use a lot of products in my life on a regular basis that in theory I shouldn't. I'm pretty sure we'll all hypocrites to some degree. I don't see how on earth it would be unfair to wholesale write off palm oil though (not that one can, completely, as again it's in just about everything!), though I would never write off a PERSON who uses palm oil in their soaps or in anything else for crying out loud! That would be pretty unreasonable, wouldn't it? I hope this issue of unsustainability (is that a word?!) gets resolved and that the small farmers can keep food on their tables. I don't doubt that they'll continue producing palm one way or the other.
As for your irritation about people who tout that their products are palm-free, that just seems silly to me. People are different and want different things and for those who are against buying palm when it can be helped, I think it's fantastic that some offer palm-free products! How can this be a problem to you? You assume they're "touting," furthermore, which sounds so snippy and defensive. Defensive people irritate me, lol. How do you know they're one-upping you? I mean maybe they ARE, I don't know (I don't sell these products but just do it for fun - so there may be a competitive component that I can't relate to). But you don't know that people are being mean-spirited - you're just assuming. And if they're making a "better" product (if all they're saying about palm oil is true), how can you blame them for wanting that recognition? I'm sure there are way more soap-buyers who don't give a rat's patootie whether or not there's palm in it than those that do. Would you be one-upping anyone if you said that your product uses sustainable palm rather than just plain ol' palm (assuming there's truly a difference)? If I were to use tallow from free-range animals in order to avoid the animal cruelty associated with palm (though cruelty is an understatement), would I be some sort of one-upping touter for sharing that my tallow come from a free-range farm? I think that's a benefit and selling point for many and is worth sharing. On the other hand, I'd be evil to vegans. There's something for everyone (and something to avoid, for many).
Ok - ugh - now I'M getting off my soapbox (for now)!! :silent: Sorry for being defensive about defensiveness.
eleraine
Well-Known Member
Sorry! Didn't realize that until you pointed it out... :silent:
It is a sensitive topic for me too coz I came back during the haze and my son's eczema (he had been eczema free in France for over a year) flared up like crazy during this period plus I know of people who entered the hospital coz of ENT issues that cropped up during the haze.
Also, you know how snarky some politicians can be (on both sides!!!)...
Having said that, there is a lot I love about Indonesia and Malaysia isn't all that fab either (I can go on and on about how awful it can be here).
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Saswede
Well-Known Member
Until this morning I hadn't really done much research on palm production in west Africa - but with a few hours searching and reading various articles and reports on the palm industry in the region, I'm not sure that the situation is much different than Asia. And sadly, it seems unlikely that the African people will enjoy any of the financial benefits from the growing industry because the large companies with ambitions to plant millions of hectares of palm across the region are all foreign. And they are mainly the self-same companies involved in palm oil production in Indonesia and Malaysia .......
Like Asia, there are some good examples of sustainable palm production, where responsible companies have invested in existing plantations and partnered with local communities to ensure that the west African people do benefit. Industry-sponsored communications also point out their large investments in infrastructure, and the fact that they are building schools and hospitals, and providing jobs where there were none - which is all good.
But, if you consider only the independent reports and articles written by journalists and analysts with no vested interest in the palm industry, there appears to be widespread deforestation and loss of habitat for some endangered primates, like the drill (which is a lot like a baboon). And in addition, these companies have taken 50-60 year leases on land (signed by the governments in the region) that has traditionally been used for subsistence farming - so palm production in west Africa seems not only to have raised exactly the same environmental concerns as in Asia, but could also contribute to problems with food and water supply for local populations.
I've attached links to a few articles and reports, in case anyone is interested:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/18/us-africa-palm-idUSBRE86H09320120718
http://www.africareview.com/Busines...Leone/-/979184/1890250/-/11p52ux/-/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/23/african-palm-oil-makers-hit-back-at-smear-campaign/
http://www.consultancyafrica.com/in...est-africa-&catid=92:enviro-africa&Itemid=297
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23949512
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Like Asia, there are some good examples of sustainable palm production, where responsible companies have invested in existing plantations and partnered with local communities to ensure that the west African people do benefit. Industry-sponsored communications also point out their large investments in infrastructure, and the fact that they are building schools and hospitals, and providing jobs where there were none - which is all good.
But, if you consider only the independent reports and articles written by journalists and analysts with no vested interest in the palm industry, there appears to be widespread deforestation and loss of habitat for some endangered primates, like the drill (which is a lot like a baboon). And in addition, these companies have taken 50-60 year leases on land (signed by the governments in the region) that has traditionally been used for subsistence farming - so palm production in west Africa seems not only to have raised exactly the same environmental concerns as in Asia, but could also contribute to problems with food and water supply for local populations.
I've attached links to a few articles and reports, in case anyone is interested:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/18/us-africa-palm-idUSBRE86H09320120718
http://www.africareview.com/Busines...Leone/-/979184/1890250/-/11p52ux/-/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/23/african-palm-oil-makers-hit-back-at-smear-campaign/
http://www.consultancyafrica.com/in...est-africa-&catid=92:enviro-africa&Itemid=297
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23949512
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Saswede
Well-Known Member
I should also have included some info on the drills, which are threatened with extinction - so here it is:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-countdown/2013/07/16/habitat-rare-primate-cameroon/
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http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-countdown/2013/07/16/habitat-rare-primate-cameroon/
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eleraine
Well-Known Member
I am curious to know what the impact is like on our butter sources...must go nosy around the Internet for more info.
I'm sorry too. I reacted too harshly too. I hope your son is better now. It really is a bad situation that I hope will be resolved as soon as possible.
eleraine
Well-Known Member
He's okay now - thanks for asking. He was also allergic to essential oils (not too sure which one) so I had to stop soapmaking for a while but he seems to have outgrown it (YAY!).
Saswede
Well-Known Member
There has also been a lot of bad press for some of the butters, Eleraine ....... The most current of which is the scandal around child labor used to shell cocoa beans in many countries. And like the palm oil case the issues are complex, because much of the child labor is on family farms of small producers, where parents put their children to work to reduce their labor costs.
Nestlé, the number 1 chocolate-producing company, has come under fire from consumers over the last few years for not securing its supply chain to avoid cocoa products produced by children, and some of the largest global chocolate producers have set up the Cocoa Initiative to try to address the poverty and lack of education at the heart of the problem.
I've also read about exploitation of women processing argan oil in Morocco. The harvest and processing was traditionally done by cooperatives of women, who used the oil themselves for eating and for its beneficial effects on the skin and hair. But as the west has started adopting argan oil and the price has gone up, corporations have taken control of argan oil production, and they now pay the women in the cooperatives a meager salary.
And there are probably ethical issues surrounding many of the other oils and butters (and other products for that matter, including textiles and footwear to name a couple) that are produced in poor or developing countries. But none of the other oils or butters have had the devastating environmental impact of the deforestation to produce palm oil ......
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Nestlé, the number 1 chocolate-producing company, has come under fire from consumers over the last few years for not securing its supply chain to avoid cocoa products produced by children, and some of the largest global chocolate producers have set up the Cocoa Initiative to try to address the poverty and lack of education at the heart of the problem.
I've also read about exploitation of women processing argan oil in Morocco. The harvest and processing was traditionally done by cooperatives of women, who used the oil themselves for eating and for its beneficial effects on the skin and hair. But as the west has started adopting argan oil and the price has gone up, corporations have taken control of argan oil production, and they now pay the women in the cooperatives a meager salary.
And there are probably ethical issues surrounding many of the other oils and butters (and other products for that matter, including textiles and footwear to name a couple) that are produced in poor or developing countries. But none of the other oils or butters have had the devastating environmental impact of the deforestation to produce palm oil ......
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Saswede
Well-Known Member
A quick addition to the above - shea butter is less of a target for exploitation because the (wild) trees are extremely slow-growing, and only bear fruit after decades rather than months or years. So it's less likely to attract the interest of big oil-producing corporations who seek a short-term return on their investment.
However west African shea butter production (as opposed to production in Uganda and southern Sudan) is largely in the control of western corporations who employ local women to harvest and process the nuts.
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However west African shea butter production (as opposed to production in Uganda and southern Sudan) is largely in the control of western corporations who employ local women to harvest and process the nuts.
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StarBrown,
Thank you for that - we're all a bit sensitive around this topic I guess.
Movements aren't just trends though. Trends are trends. I think it's important and a good thing that - as you say - every few years there is some great concern that comes about. Imagine what the world would be like if some brave souls didn't take a stand and begin that movement and others didn't pay attention and chime in, making a difference in small and big ways? Are they sheep, following the heard? Maybe, in some cases. Which is fine if their compassion and/or intelligence and ability to understand propels them into action, as well as perhaps their desire to follow. I know at times it can be annoying when it seems everyone's up in arms about something and you have certain "types" boycotting anything and everything. I think I know what you're saying. They can rub us the wrong way with all the self-righteous behavior - or that's my take on it anyway. It can be exhausting. But it doesn't negate the truth of the situation behind all that behavior, in most cases. People don't become passionate in these types of circumstances over nothing. You wrote that there becomes some great concern that comes about (these movements) and then fades away. And then you mentioned fair trade and cruelty-free as if they have faded away but you see they haven't. The "great concern" didn't go anywhere. And if any of it faded away (a big if), it's because people made a difference and the situation has improved. What happened is that corporations finally had to listen and comply with consumers' and activists' demands, which made things quieter. It actually makes me feel quite proud of the human race. In this context, historically I guess you could say, most people do go after the product rather than the people behind the product causing harm. Because a lot of people in their busy lives don't have the attention span and time and energy to be able to pay attention to anything any more complex than the product which has the unfortunate duty of representing the evil-doers. They eventually come to realize - maybe even unconsciously - that X product = bad. Yes, right now that's true re. palm oil. I mean duh yes of course a THING can't be bad but why belabor the obvious? We need to get a bit more nuanced here people. You wrote that a lot of people buy into this anti-palm movement without considering other sources (of palm, I assume you mean - since this whole thread began because I was considering other sources, e.g. tallow). But in the case of palm - as others here have pointed out - anyone who's dug just a short way down into this issue has come to the same conclusion as everyone else that's doing his/her research...which is to say that palm right now doesn't really have a good, safe and reliable source, even though there are people and families, farms etc. who are trying and mean well.
So for you to say palm is a false issue is, well, false! Sure the plant itself might be harmless but again, I don't think anyone here including yourself believes that that's what we're talking about here. That's a different topic. Apples and oranges. You're talking about something like the difference between using petroleum-based oil versus vitamin E oil for the skin, which is a different type of issue altogether. In that case, many would argue the petroleum oil isn't good for the skin and the vit. E oil is. Palm oil is likewise safe for the skin. But what we're talking about here isn't about skin safety. Again, I think you know that! Sorry to have such faith in you! ;-)
I think I understand that you're saying you're frustrated that those ignorant of the palm issues altogether are likely to read soapers' 'touts' about using palm-free ingredients and then begin to think "oh that must be dangerous stuff so I won't buy this soap that uses palm cause palm be bad for me" or something like that. But I don't think they're that stupid and even if they are, so what? It's a GOOD thing if people avoid something that is causing such devastation! UNTIL things improve, at least. And we're just not there yet. Believe me, I loved my soaps that had palm in it and I'd love for those families and farmers to be able to grow it. I don't hate palm oil - I hate how people have abused it. They not only harm the Earth and wildlife in their abuse of it but they also potentially harm your soap sales too. Not the other soapers. You're pointing fingers at the wrong folks IMO.
I believe that those purporting that they're on the "right side" of the issue by not using palm oil at all (note, I am not putting the word issue in quotation marks, because I'm not mocking it - because it IS a real and very serious, life-threatening issue for Christ's sake), are correct. That said, I don't think they think they're better than anyone else - at least I don't feel that way. I'm not the one who mentioned "sides," originally. I feel an icky feeling in my stomach when I think of using palm oil now. Especially after watching a couple of documentaries on it and seeing the devastation in video format. You can never forget it. And while I don't sell soap, I'd want my friends and family to know I'm not using palm and why I'm not, because in my small way I'm helping by raising awareness and showing that something lovely can come from a palm-free product until this ISSUE is resolved. If I make soap without palm (which I have yet to do, mind you!), I will indeed be special thank you very much, I think. It's a PAIN IN MY A$$ to have to go try something new when palm was working just fine. I feel special because I know that in my pathetic existence I will in some small way be making a difference - even if the act of doing so is only about the energy I'm sending out there into the universe, so to speak. Now don't go accusing me of being all hippy dippy for having said that, okay?!!! :lolno:
Look what you do to me?!! Somebody cut me off!!!
Thank you for that - we're all a bit sensitive around this topic I guess.
Movements aren't just trends though. Trends are trends. I think it's important and a good thing that - as you say - every few years there is some great concern that comes about. Imagine what the world would be like if some brave souls didn't take a stand and begin that movement and others didn't pay attention and chime in, making a difference in small and big ways? Are they sheep, following the heard? Maybe, in some cases. Which is fine if their compassion and/or intelligence and ability to understand propels them into action, as well as perhaps their desire to follow. I know at times it can be annoying when it seems everyone's up in arms about something and you have certain "types" boycotting anything and everything. I think I know what you're saying. They can rub us the wrong way with all the self-righteous behavior - or that's my take on it anyway. It can be exhausting. But it doesn't negate the truth of the situation behind all that behavior, in most cases. People don't become passionate in these types of circumstances over nothing. You wrote that there becomes some great concern that comes about (these movements) and then fades away. And then you mentioned fair trade and cruelty-free as if they have faded away but you see they haven't. The "great concern" didn't go anywhere. And if any of it faded away (a big if), it's because people made a difference and the situation has improved. What happened is that corporations finally had to listen and comply with consumers' and activists' demands, which made things quieter. It actually makes me feel quite proud of the human race. In this context, historically I guess you could say, most people do go after the product rather than the people behind the product causing harm. Because a lot of people in their busy lives don't have the attention span and time and energy to be able to pay attention to anything any more complex than the product which has the unfortunate duty of representing the evil-doers. They eventually come to realize - maybe even unconsciously - that X product = bad. Yes, right now that's true re. palm oil. I mean duh yes of course a THING can't be bad but why belabor the obvious? We need to get a bit more nuanced here people. You wrote that a lot of people buy into this anti-palm movement without considering other sources (of palm, I assume you mean - since this whole thread began because I was considering other sources, e.g. tallow). But in the case of palm - as others here have pointed out - anyone who's dug just a short way down into this issue has come to the same conclusion as everyone else that's doing his/her research...which is to say that palm right now doesn't really have a good, safe and reliable source, even though there are people and families, farms etc. who are trying and mean well.
So for you to say palm is a false issue is, well, false! Sure the plant itself might be harmless but again, I don't think anyone here including yourself believes that that's what we're talking about here. That's a different topic. Apples and oranges. You're talking about something like the difference between using petroleum-based oil versus vitamin E oil for the skin, which is a different type of issue altogether. In that case, many would argue the petroleum oil isn't good for the skin and the vit. E oil is. Palm oil is likewise safe for the skin. But what we're talking about here isn't about skin safety. Again, I think you know that! Sorry to have such faith in you! ;-)
I think I understand that you're saying you're frustrated that those ignorant of the palm issues altogether are likely to read soapers' 'touts' about using palm-free ingredients and then begin to think "oh that must be dangerous stuff so I won't buy this soap that uses palm cause palm be bad for me" or something like that. But I don't think they're that stupid and even if they are, so what? It's a GOOD thing if people avoid something that is causing such devastation! UNTIL things improve, at least. And we're just not there yet. Believe me, I loved my soaps that had palm in it and I'd love for those families and farmers to be able to grow it. I don't hate palm oil - I hate how people have abused it. They not only harm the Earth and wildlife in their abuse of it but they also potentially harm your soap sales too. Not the other soapers. You're pointing fingers at the wrong folks IMO.
I believe that those purporting that they're on the "right side" of the issue by not using palm oil at all (note, I am not putting the word issue in quotation marks, because I'm not mocking it - because it IS a real and very serious, life-threatening issue for Christ's sake), are correct. That said, I don't think they think they're better than anyone else - at least I don't feel that way. I'm not the one who mentioned "sides," originally. I feel an icky feeling in my stomach when I think of using palm oil now. Especially after watching a couple of documentaries on it and seeing the devastation in video format. You can never forget it. And while I don't sell soap, I'd want my friends and family to know I'm not using palm and why I'm not, because in my small way I'm helping by raising awareness and showing that something lovely can come from a palm-free product until this ISSUE is resolved. If I make soap without palm (which I have yet to do, mind you!), I will indeed be special thank you very much, I think. It's a PAIN IN MY A$$ to have to go try something new when palm was working just fine. I feel special because I know that in my pathetic existence I will in some small way be making a difference - even if the act of doing so is only about the energy I'm sending out there into the universe, so to speak. Now don't go accusing me of being all hippy dippy for having said that, okay?!!! :lolno:
Look what you do to me?!! Somebody cut me off!!!
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