Water Discounting Advice?

[DeeAnna]

"...this was with me using 35/38% water. You say full water is 27-28%..."

Whoa there, little dogie. I think you have it backwards.

These numbers are the percentages of sodium hydroxide (NaOH, lye) in the water. Not the percentage of water. "Full water" of 27-28% lye means the lye solution has 72-73% water and 27-28% NaOH/sodium hydroxide/lye. The terminology of "full water" is obscure and confusing, but we all have to live with it.

By using a 33% lye solution, you are using "discounted water", meaning you have less water (and more NaOH) in your lye solution than if you used "full water".

Okay, I'm going to add to the chorus. You clearly want to make and sell lots of soap. Whether you realize it or not, that means your business should be based on a semi-industrial version of handcrafted soap making. You can no longer afford to think like a hobby soap maker -- you need to think like an engineer and business person whose job is making and selling soap.

Accept the issue of the cure time. You are getting good advice from everyone about this. A good engineer knows when some issues are non-negotiable, so he or she builds them into the process and moves on. Cure time is one of those issues, if you really want to make soap right. As others have pointed out, the cure time is only going to cause a one-time delay up front, if you run your business right.

You have also mentioned several other things -- You don't want to wait around to stamp your soap. You want it to harden as fast as possible. You are impatient about the cure. You want to sell lots of soap. I would think, given those expectations, that the last thing you would want to do is add more water to your recipe.

Think like an engineer about these goals and tweak your recipe and procedures to better meet those goals. What about your soaping temperature -- can you soap cooler to slow trace? What about your mixing of the batter -- can you reduce the intensity of mixing? What about your molds -- do you want to use slab molds to get a little more water evaporation during the saponification step? A recipe with 50% olive is not going to be especially hard at first and coconut can shorten time to trace -- what about tweaking the recipe for more initial hardness and slower trace?

My 2 cents, YMMV, and all that....

 

[LegendsCreekFarm]

Your 2 cents is valuable information to me. We have already decided to stick with a full cure time as it's important for us to have a quality product for the long time.

I guess when we are talking about water, I will tell you that I use soapcalc. The "water as % of oils" is what I was referring to when talking about using less water. Is there a % that is standard, and safe since I am not an advance soap maker?

We have already spent a ton of money on better equipment for making much larger batches. Next stop is to buy a bakery wrack of curing the soap.

I will take your advice of slowing down my blender speed, and trying to work with a cooler batter to help the issue with trace. My main concern was that by the time I am done filling the individual silicone molds with half my batter, when I go to pour the rest it starts to thicken very rapidly and makes it harder to get a smooth surface after the pour.

So much to learn, but happy to be part of such an awesome community.

"...this was with me using 35/38% water. You say full water is 27-28%..."

Whoa there, little dogie. I think you have it backwards.

These numbers are the percentages of sodium hydroxide (NaOH, lye) in the water. Not the percentage of water. "Full water" of 27-28% lye means the lye solution has 72-73% water and 27-28% NaOH/sodium hydroxide/lye. The terminology of "full water" is obscure and confusing, but we all have to live with it.

By using a 33% lye solution, you are using "discounted water", meaning you have less water (and more NaOH) in your lye solution than if you used "full water".

Okay, I'm going to add to the chorus. You clearly want to make and sell lots of soap. Whether you realize it or not, that means your business should be based on a semi-industrial version of handcrafted soap making. You can no longer afford to think like a hobby soap maker -- you need to think like an engineer and business person whose job is making and selling soap.

Accept the issue of the cure time. You are getting good advice from everyone about this. A good engineer knows when some issues are non-negotiable, so he or she builds them into the process and moves on. Cure time is one of those issues, if you really want to make soap right. As others have pointed out, the cure time is only going to cause a one-time delay up front, if you run your business right.

You have also mentioned several other things -- You don't want to wait around to stamp your soap. You want it to harden as fast as possible. You are impatient about the cure. You want to sell lots of soap. I would think, given those expectations, that the last thing you would want to do is add more water to your recipe.

Think like an engineer about these goals and tweak your recipe and procedures to better meet those goals. What about your soaping temperature -- can you soap cooler to slow trace? What about your mixing of the batter -- can you reduce the intensity of mixing? What about your molds -- do you want to use slab molds to get a little more water evaporation during the saponification step? A recipe with 50% olive is not going to be especially hard at first and coconut can shorten time to trace -- what about tweaking the recipe for more initial hardness and slower trace?

My 2 cents, YMMV, and all that....

 

[chicklet]

I get very confused with the terms like full water and water discount and lye discount and all that. I use the soapcalc app on my phone - there are some things the online version does that the app does not do, but I still use the app. I read all the posts about discount this and discount that, but my eyes start to glaze over and my ADD takes over, so I just make sure the little bar on the app is sitting on 38% if it's a new recipe or if it includes essential oils I haven't tried before or if I want to do fancy swirls or if I'm using all beer as the liquid. (The last thing is because I'm impatient and sometimes I freeze the beer when it's not totally flat and I never boil it because that seems wasteful to me and I know now from experience that when I use beer "my" way it can cause a really fast trace so I use 38% to slow trace a little.) If I'm making a tried and true recipe that I know won't trace fast and I'm not doing any fancy stuff, like my plain jane buttermilk oatmeal, then I slide the bar over to 30% because I know I can get by with less liquid in that recipe. For the rest of my soaps - they fall somewhere in between 30% and 38%.

The default setting on my soapcalc app is 38%.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yep, I agree with you, Chicklet. The terminology is confusing to me too.

From my point of view, I really would prefer to never hear again the terms "full water" and "discounted water"; they make a mystery out of something that is, from my point of view, very straightforward.

I would also love to get rid of the "water as a % of oils" number. This number "mysterifies" soap making even more. It does nothing to educate soap makers about what I think is more important -- the amount of NaOH in water when you make your lye solution.

I want to specifically know about the composition of my lye solution. I know that 27-28% NaOH in water is about the lowest I should go to get good emulsification and saponification, and I know 50% NaOH is about the highest that I can reasonably go and still get all of the NaOH properly dissolved.

I try to be really specific when I write about NaOH solution concentration, but there is too much room for confusion given that the soap recipe calculators present the same information in several different ways.

So ... again ... YMMV and all that. I thought I was being clear, but I gather I have not been. I am sorry if I've confused anyone.

 

[Ianto]

The last two batches of soap I made I tried water discounts. All of the recipes I had made so far I used 2.8:1 (water:lye). This ratio seemed to be working out until it got little more humid. My 1 month old soap doesn't seem as firm as it did in the winter and spring. My thought was less water would mean less water to evaporate during the humid months. I will still let the soap cure 6-8 weeks of course.

The first batch I tried 2.3:1 (water:lye). I didn't notice anything really different at this ratio for the soap making process other than it seemed to take a little longer for they lye to completely dissolve into the water. The soap at 2 weeks old feels just as firm as soap that as the 1 month old soap.

The second batch I tried was 2:1 (water:lye). I did notice some difference in the soap making process with this ratio. It also took longer for the lye to dissolve - in fact I thought I saw a very small piece (grain of salt small) that didn't dissolve. After doing some reading I think it may have been precipitate since I let my solution cool to room temperature. In any case, I fished it of my solution and continued on. The soap traced a lot quicker than normal. After 24 hours my soap was very firm and at 1 week old it is just as firm as my others.

My next batch I think that I will go back to 2.3:1 (water:lye). I feel like I may not have enough experience for the 2:1 ratio yet.

For your recipe you use 50% hard oils and goats milk instead of water. I would be cautious doing a discount because of the milk. If you attempt this, I would suggest scaling back the amount of milk you use very slowly and make smaller batches.

 

[LegendsCreekFarm]

Thank you very much for the info. I am going to stick with what I was originally doing and test, test, test with proper stamping times and such.

I did find a batch I did 2 months ago that was hidden away. It was half OO, and half Coconut oil. I used it today and wow was it really awesome soap. It was whiter on the outside with a stain in the middle that was darker from when it was gelling, but I am starting to see the importance of waiting at least the full 6 weeks.

 

[DeeAnna]

Kudos to you, Jon. Sounds like you are meticulous in your planning.

Say, have y'all been to Jon's website -- http://gaygourmet.co/ ?? His latest post describes how to make grilled pizza! I've been wanting to try that for quite some time now, and Jon's recipe has given me no excuse for putting it off any longer. YUM!

 

[bodhi]

I did find a batch I did 2 months ago that was hidden away. It was half OO, and half Coconut oil. I used it today and wow was it really awesome soap. It was whiter on the outside with a stain in the middle that was darker from when it was gelling, but I am starting to see the importance of waiting at least the full 6 weeks.

And there you have the beauty of oilve oil. Wait anoter 8, or 10 months or so and try it again.

This is why i mentioned wasting the oilve if youre selling it early and trying other recipes/oils if you dont want a long cure. Olive just keeps getting better.

 

[LegendsCreekFarm]

My name is Aden, Jon is actually my husband, and I do much of the posting at GayGourmet. So glad you checked it out and love it! That grilled pizza is phenomenal!

 

[soapguy]

The advantage of waiting 6 weeks in my opinion is that the soap tends to last longer and appears to be harder. Evaporation makes a better soap. I use my soaps for personal use within a couple of days of making them. For me, that's how I test them. Of course they have to pass the zap test. I know all people do not have the same skin sensitivity, so I will not sell my soaps until at least 3 weeks have gone by. I have soaps that are over a year old and are solid as rock, They are my favorite. My concerns are fragrance retention, rancidity, and soda ash. For these I use beeswax and Orris root.

One way to solve your problem would be making larger batches. This would allow flexibility in filling your orders within your preferable time allotment.

 

[soapguy]

This is probably not a scientific method, but I have noticed that older soaps sound like blocks of wood when you slam them against each other. You cannot get that in soaps that have not cured long enough. If I hear a thud It is not ready and has too much water in it.

 

[chicklet]

DeeAnna - I agree totally that the confusing terms make soaping seem more mysterious than it actually is. I've said before that its science, but it ain't rocket science. And I still believe that - I am proof that its true! But now, well now, I ... uh... I think you probably ARE a rocket scientist. But I also think you are a teacher because you explain all the scientific stuff really well! I've learned a lot from your posts. I was drawn to soapmaking for several reasons: I like to learn new crafts, I like the opportunities for artistic expression, and I like the idea that I'm doing science experiments. I never want to stop learning. Thank you for sharing your scientific knowledge with us.

 

[DeeAnna]

Aden -- I'm sorry for confusing you with Jon. My apologies. I will say again, your grilled pizza recipe looks like a real winner, and I do plan to try it.

Chicklet -- I like science, math, and teaching, and I've used all of that in my varied work career. Rocket scientist I'm not, but I am something of a girl geek (albeit an older one). Thanks!