Usage rate for essentials in LS

Discussion in 'Liquid Soap and Cream Soap Forum' started by Carl, Apr 23, 2019.

Help Support Soapmaking Forum by donating:

  1. Apr 23, 2019 #1

    Carl

    Carl

    Carl

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    57
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Usage rates for essentials for bar soap are all over the web, but what usage rates are you using in liquid soaps for essentials?

    I'm talking post dilution. What about if you use a foamer bottle? Any different?

    Most of the recipes on the web say: "Use 10 drops, Use 15 drops, etc. etc."

    I would rather measure by weight.
     
  2. Apr 23, 2019 #2

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,736
    Likes Received:
    14,155
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa, USA
    I always measure by weight. My scenting for LS is always based on the weight of diluted soap.

    I usually add a total weight of fragrance (EO, FO, or both) at 0.5% to 1% by weight. Any more than that is too strong for my nose. That dosage is going to be pretty safe for most EOs, although there are a few that are sensitizers or allergens, so it's good to double check.

    For a highly diluted soap for use in a foamer bottle, I'd start on the low end (0.5%) and see what you think.
     
  3. Apr 23, 2019 #3

    Andrew

    Andrew

    Andrew

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    PA
    I like 1% as well. I always want to put more in, but the scent does not dissipate in liquid soap since it is in the container. Plus, absolutes and certain oils can mess up the liquid soap clarity
     
  4. Apr 23, 2019 #4

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,736
    Likes Received:
    14,155
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa, USA
    Another tip that might be helpful -- always test a new fragrance or fragrance blend in a sample of LS before scenting a larger amount.

    FOs and EOs can thin or thicken the soap. They can cause the soap to become clumpy or stringy. They can cloud the soap. It's best to test a sample first and find out.

    Texture and appearance changes can take some time to show up, so give the sample some time (maybe a day or three?) before deciding whether a scent is going to work or not.
     
    Susie and cmzaha like this.
  5. Apr 25, 2019 #5

    Susie

    Susie

    Susie

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    9,282
    Likes Received:
    8,480
    Location:
    Texas
    I would up that amount of time to a week. Nothing worse than to give someone a gift of liquid soap and it turn out snotty from the FO.

    I know I am old fashioned, and don't like a lot of scent in LS, but I still use the 0,5 oz/PPO rate.
     
  6. Apr 25, 2019 #6

    Andrew

    Andrew

    Andrew

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    PA
    I hardly have any experience with fragrance oils. They tend to give me skin issues. How do fragrance oils turn liquid soap snotty? Is it a similar process to ricing in bar soap?
     
  7. Apr 25, 2019 #7

    Carl

    Carl

    Carl

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    57
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Funny you ask. I was going to ask the same. I've been having a lot better luck with EOs than FOs. Most of the FOs that I used so far have caused at least some "Snotting." I'm talking chunks floating on top of the soap. I have one FO that actually formed a solid layer on top of the soap in the bottle. If you held the bottle upside down, the soap could not even get through it.

    None of the EOs I've used so far have caused any "Snotting." They all seem to be fine. I've even tested with some of the cheap EOs from Michael's and they've held up well also.
     
    Andrew likes this.
  8. Apr 25, 2019 #8

    Andrew

    Andrew

    Andrew

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    PA
    since fragrance oils are 90% solvent, I assume that is the culprit. Fragrance oils have caused ricing, seizing, burning, and a whole host of issues which is why I avoid them as much as I can.
     
  9. Apr 25, 2019 #9

    IrishLass

    IrishLass

    IrishLass

    Staff Member Admin

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    15,136
    Likes Received:
    8,976
    Location:
    Right here, silly!
    I don't use EOs in my liquid soap- just FOs, but either way, weighing is the way to go (as per the weight of diluted soap). As for the amount, always check the EO charts for safe dilution rates for the particular EO you are using.

    For what it's worth, I've found that liquid soap takes very nicely to being scented....in other words, it doesn't take as much FO/EO to scent liquid soap as it does to scent bar soap. I've found .5% to .75% FO as per the weight of diluted soap to be plenty aromatic enough for us with most of my FOs.


    I guess I've been lucky so far with the particular FOs I use in my liquid soap- I've never experienced any snotting of the kind that you mentioned above, except for soap boogers that form at the pump nozzle-tip. Inside the bottle, though, it's all smooth and liquid.

    Having said that, though, I've sometimes bought Dr. Bronner's unscented liquid "Pure Castile" Hemp Baby Soap to temporarily tide us over as a fill-in until I'm able to make another batch of my own GLS, and I often get goobers inside the main body of soap when I add FO to it. For whatever reason, though, that never happens when I add FO to my own. Don't know why that is, but it is.


    IrishLass :)
     
    Susie likes this.
  10. Apr 25, 2019 #10

    LilianNoir

    LilianNoir

    LilianNoir

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2019
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    40
    Location:
    Florida
    Fragrance oils are proprietary blends of essential oils and aroma chemicals. I've never heard any claim of solvents in them, and 90% is quite high. I'd love to see your source on that, as I find the chemistry behind FO's quite fascinating.
    (Edited to add: of course, essential oils can and do contain solvents, as they are used in part of the extraction process. So a FO might contain some solvent residue from the EO's used, but that's not quite the same as an FO being "90% solvent")

    Essential oils can cause the same issues as FOs in terms of seizing, acceleration, etc.
    There are fewer EO's that cause these problems it's true, but I suspect/my theory is that the bad behavior lies in specific aroma chemicals, which FO's may have higher amounts of.
    It's hard to identify any one culprit since EO's(and FOs) contain hundreds to thousands of different molecules.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    IrishLass and Susie like this.
  11. Apr 25, 2019 #11

    jcandleattic

    jcandleattic

    jcandleattic

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,078
    Likes Received:
    2,117
    Location:
    Stuck in my head
    The FO's I've put in my glycerine liquid soap have not given me any trouble at all. No snotty texture, no globules in the finished soap, all nice and smooth. The only thing is that certain FO's (this is true of EO's also) will change the viscosity of the soap (maybe that's what you are experiencing @Carl?), so I have to either not dilute as much or dilute more. Just depends.
     
  12. Apr 26, 2019 #12

    Susie

    Susie

    Susie

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    9,282
    Likes Received:
    8,480
    Location:
    Texas
    Gosh, I never meant to start a huge FO bash, guys! I gladly, happily, and with great glee use FOs in all of my soap. Can't begin to estimate how much money that one move has saved me!!! Not to mention how many thousands of more choices I now have to happily sniff away! And I assure you that I have had an equal number of problems with both EOs and FOs with both bar and liquid soap.

    My only caution was to allow at least a week, as part of your routine testing, before deeming any scent safe for use in liquid soap. I related a single embarrassing episode related to insufficient time in testing. That's all, folks! No FO bashing here. So sorry for the delay in returning to the forum to nip the hoorah in the bud, but I have been home ill and running fever, so being miserable has occupied much of my time.
     
    DeeAnna likes this.
  13. Apr 26, 2019 #13

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,736
    Likes Received:
    14,155
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa, USA
    "...essential oils can and do contain solvents, as they are used in part of the extraction process..."

    Essential oils are created only by distillation or by expression (squeezing). If solvents are used, the product is not an essential oil. It might be a concrete, absolute, oleoresin, extract, etc. but it's not an essential oil.
     
  14. Apr 26, 2019 #14

    LilianNoir

    LilianNoir

    LilianNoir

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2019
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    40
    Location:
    Florida
    You are, of course, 100% correct. I think I was kind of lumping them together in my mind at the time.
    You can make an EO from an absolute or concrete, can't you? But even then, it won't contain the solvent.
     
  15. Apr 26, 2019 #15

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,736
    Likes Received:
    14,155
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa, USA
    I suppose if you wanted to really push the point, one could distill a concrete or absolute and collect the low boiling chemicals. Based on my experience as a chemical engineer, I think this is technically feasible. But that's not the same as being desirable to do. I do not think it would give the same results as steam distilling fresh plant material.
     
  16. Apr 26, 2019 #16

    LilianNoir

    LilianNoir

    LilianNoir

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2019
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    40
    Location:
    Florida
    I'm sorry i wasn't trying to argue, i was genuinely curious. The chemistry of both EO and FO and herbalism overall is of great interest to me. :)
     
  17. Apr 27, 2019 #17

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,736
    Likes Received:
    14,155
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa, USA
    Oh, gosh no, I didn't take you as trying to argue at all, @LillianNoir. When I used the "push the point" phrase, that was me just thinking out loud and using a figure of speech my father often used when he was thinking out loud. I apologize for not realizing how that could be interpreted.
     
    LilianNoir likes this.

Share This Page