Uncommon Saponified Oils

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coconutoliveallergyp

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Obsidian: Okay, don't judge me but I have uncommon reactions. I get a skin-crawling sensation every time I use anything coconut based. I feel it esp in my fingers and toes. One time I tried a shower gel from a homemade business and felt that sensation all over the lower part of my leg. It was disturbing... and I think it was a coconut based shower gel. Then I get pimples from anything olive-oil based. Coconut oil gives pimples, too. Shea butter dries my skin out in a way where my hands sound like rubbing sandpaper together and I can snag mittens, gloves, towels if I use it. It also causes an allergic reaction if I use it as a lip balm for example, my lips and tongue start burning... sometimes I get dyshidrosis, that happens a lot with petrolem-based lotions (little bumps all over my fingers). Cocoa butter causes pimples. And as ImpKid stated, a lot of these oils/butters share proteins so I have pretty much a negative reaction to other things related to them. so I've tried mango butter, kokum butter, cupuacu butter and got these same negative reactions... I guess my problem could be internal, never really thought about that.
 

Quanta

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Obsidian: Okay, don't judge me but I have uncommon reactions. I get a skin-crawling sensation every time I use anything coconut based. I feel it esp in my fingers and toes. One time I tried a shower gel from a homemade business and felt that sensation all over the lower part of my leg. It was disturbing... and I think it was a coconut based shower gel. Then I get pimples from anything olive-oil based. Coconut oil gives pimples, too. Shea butter dries my skin out in a way where my hands sound like rubbing sandpaper together and I can snag mittens, gloves, towels if I use it. It also causes an allergic reaction if I use it as a lip balm for example, my lips and tongue start burning... sometimes I get dyshidrosis, that happens a lot with petrolem-based lotions (little bumps all over my fingers). Cocoa butter causes pimples. And as ImpKid stated, a lot of these oils/butters share proteins so I have pretty much a negative reaction to other things related to them. so I've tried mango butter, kokum butter, cupuacu butter and got these same negative reactions... I guess my problem could be internal, never really thought about that.
Normally "pimples" means acne to most people. Do you mean acne, or are you referring to hives?

And what exactly do you mean by "coconut based", because that can refer to either a true soap made with coconut oil, or surfactants (i.e. synthetic detergents) which are mostly made out of coconut these days.

Your dry-skin reaction to shea butter, is this if you use just straight shea butter, or is this a lotion that has some in it?

How many different shea butter lip balms have you tried from different manufacturers? Because what you describe is what happens when someone uses fragrance oil in lip balm instead of lip-safe flavor oil. I have seen negative customer reviews for fragrance oil where the reviewer used it in lip balm and complained that it made their lips burn, and when I checked the safe usage limits for the oil, it wasn't approved for lip use. If you bought something homemade at a craft fair or farmer's market, I wonder how lip safe it really was.

Regarding the protein content of fats, while the proteins may be shared between members of the same family of plants, usually in the fats that are extracted from those plants there is very little protein remaining. Usually allergies are your body's reaction to protein, so something with almost no protein is unlikely to be reacted to. There are zero verified cases of allergies to shea butter for instance. Usually what is thought to be an allergy to shea or cocoa butter turns out to be an allergy to something else.

Definitely go see your primary care doctor, and see a dermatologist as well.
 

ImpKit

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How many different shea butter lip balms have you tried from different manufacturers? Because what you describe is what happens when someone uses fragrance oil in lip balm instead of lip-safe flavor oil. I have seen negative customer reviews for fragrance oil where the reviewer used it in lip balm and complained that it made their lips burn, and when I checked the safe usage limits for the oil, it wasn't approved for lip use. If you bought something homemade at a craft fair or farmer's market, I wonder how lip safe it really was.
I have not (yet) made any lip balms nor have I purchased any from hand crafters. So while I was aware of the existence of flavor oils versus fragrance oils, I hadn't looked into the differences. This information is very helpful, thank you!
 

Zany_in_CO

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@coconutoliveallergyp You have my deepest sympathy. :( You sound a lot like me 15 years ago. My dermatologist recommended Alepo Soap which was available at the drug store back then. It stunk to high heaven! That's when I embarked on my soap making journey.
Anyone know where I can buy uncommon saponified oils?
Am I reading your request correctly? You want saponified oils? To do what?
Anyone know where I can buy liquid or bar soaps made out of something other than the common stuff like saponified grapeseed oil for example.
I've had a few customer requests that I've made for people along the way. For example, I made 100% almond oil (liquid) shampoo that turned out better than expected! Quite nice, actually, and had good, if not copious, lather. I imagine I could try the same with grapeseed oil, which by the way, I'm also quite fond of... I use it in lotions and I cook with it daily. :thumbs:
FYI: I normally add antioxidants ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) and vitamin E to all my oils to extend shelf life and to prevent rancidity.
What do you know about passionfruit oil and apricot kernel and peach oil? My skin likes those
I'm familiar with Apricot Kernel Oil. It is a lovely addition to LS, lotions & balms. I've seen it used in CP bars as well.

ETA: What about PKO (Palm Kernel Oil) and Palm? Are you allergic to them?
 

coconutoliveallergyp

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Yes, by pimples I mean acne not hives thank goodness. As yes, as you stated so many soaps are derived from coconuts. For example, I recently tried cocoglucoside, cocamidopropyl betaine, and decyl glucoside which is coconut based. Many soaps ending in sulfate are derived from the coconut. And as far as shea butter, I've tried soo many. Unable to remember them all but Shea Moisture products, TGIN products, burt's bees, Palmer's.

I'm seeking saponified oils to wash up basically, take a shower. I'm tired of showering and getting all these problems that come with it. And yes palm oil gives me huge problems unfortunately. I just used a pure palm oil soap from Etsy and it caused a bad reaction. But that's great you make almond oil liquid soap. It sounds wonderful. I would request that if it weren't for my allergy to nuts
 
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Quanta

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Yes, by pimples I mean acne not hives thank goodness. As yes, as you stated so many soaps are derived from coconuts. For example, I recently tried cocoglucoside, cocamidopropyl betaine, and decyl glucoside which is coconut based. Many soaps ending in sulfate are derived from the coconut. And as far as shea butter, I've tried soo many. Unable to remember them all but Shea Moisture products, TGIF products, burt's bees, Palmer's.

I'm seeking saponified oils to wash up basically, take a shower. I'm tired of showering and getting all these problems that come with it. And yes palm oil gives me huge problems unfortunately. I just used a pure palm oil soap from Etsy and it caused a bad reaction. But that's great you make almond oil liquid soap. It sounds wonderful. I would request that if it weren't for my allergy to nuts
As far as I know, acne is not an allergic reaction. Allergies can make it worse, and I have heard of food allergies exacerbating existing acne, but it isn't caused by something coming into contact with the skin. There are conditions that resemble acne, and one of those might be what you have.

I really think that since you have tried so many things and nothing is working, you really have something else going on. I don't think it's likely that you are really allergic to literally everything, but rather that something is going on that causes your skin to react when anything at all touches it, which is different from having an immune system response to all those things.

Go see your doctor!
 

Zany_in_CO

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I'm seeking saponified oils to wash up basically, take a shower. I'm tired of showering and getting all these problems that come with it. And yes palm oil gives me huge problems unfortunately. I just used a pure palm oil soap from Etsy and it caused a bad reaction. But that's great you make almond oil liquid soap. It sounds wonderful. I would request that if it weren't for my allergy to nuts
It's highly unlikely that you will find saponified oils that you are not allergic to anywhere. Your only option in that case is to either find someone to make something for you or, more likely, make it yourself.

Do you have any negative reaction to therapeutic grade castor oil? It is a known "healer", has a long shelf life, and adds lather to a formula. Walmart has it in 2 oz. bottles. Combined with grapeseed oil, it should make a nice hair & body shampoo that rinses off cleanly. :thumbs:
 

earlene

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Red Turkey Oil (aka Sulfated Castor Oil) may be something for you to try. It is the only water dispersable oil, a surfactant, and therefore MAYBE would not cause pimples because it is not likely to clog the pores (being water soluble.) It also emulsifies other oils. But by itself, it cannot make a soap because it is no longer saponifiable.

It is NOT the same thing as regular Castor Oil, but is transformed using a method described in these two links. (Link 1; Link 2.) Notice the use of sodium hydroxide as well as a catalyst, which in this case is EDTA (something many of us use to prevent soap scum and to facilitate reduction of soap turning rancid) and sulfuric acid and a controlled temperature during the process. It's not something we would do at home, but the end product, Red Turkey Oil (NO TURKEYS ARE USED - it's just a name) is easily obtained through many soap supply vendors.

I get mine from Soaper's Choice: CASTOR TURKEY RED | Soaper's Choice

You could use it in formulations as mentioned here, and substitute the other suggested oils with the ones you said your skin does not react to. For example, the Honey Ginger Sugar Scrub - Humblebee & Me calls for Olive Oil; you could use Grapeseed oil instead.

I use it in a LS that I use for shaving my legs (with a foamer). But the recipe calls for lanolin and other things you may not want to use, so it's probably not one you'd care to look at.

Before jumping in and buying any, read the material and do a bit more research before deciding if you want to experiment with RTO.
 

coconutoliveallergyp

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Thanks for the castor oil suggestions. I have tried black castor oil on my skin, it's quite thick and difficult to use as a moisturizer. My skin seems to like it just not on my face as it causes acne. The lighter colored castor oil kind dries me out though.

And I have heard of castor red turkey, yep from Humble Bee and Me is where I first learned of it. I've done some research about it, it seems like it's quite strong. Apparently due to it's blend with sulfuric acid, it needs to be neutralized with an alkaline substance such as a nitrosamine and I know it's not good to deal with amines on skin as it can be carcinogenic. Perhaps a simple saponified castor oil would be better for me.
 

coconutoliveallergyp

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Zany_in_CO: I saw your suggestion for Aleppo soap and I'm thinking of buying it online to give it a go. I have never tried it because of the problems w/olive oil but I figure it's worth a shot. It seems like it's different from regular olive oil soaps somehow. Although I am seeing a lot of complaints that it smells like burnt tires hehe...
 

cmzaha

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Allergies can be extremely tricky. You can eat something and Not have an allergic reaction because it changes in the system but will act differently a-topically, which is why allergy testing to foods will not produce the same results as testing for skin allergies.

You also should make small samples of single oil soaps that you suspect you are allergic to with different SF's for every single oil. Start with no superfat and go up to maybe 7% keeping good records for each sample, using all the same additives. I personally would only use water and no additives you want to rule out the oils. As Obsidian mentioned it might be your soap is simply too harsh as CO soap is. While this may be a bit of work it is truly the only way you will rule out if you are truly allergic to a particular ingredient in soap. As also mentioned some people are sensitive to high Oleic Acid soaps which I personally hate.
 

Zany_in_CO

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Zany_in_CO: I saw your suggestion for Aleppo soap and I'm thinking of buying it online to give it a go.
I would NOT recommend it for you since it is mostly olive oil with a little bay laurel oil thrown in.
You also should make small samples of single oil soaps that you suspect you are allergic to with different SF's for every single oil. Start with no superfat and go up to maybe 7% keeping good records for each sample, using all the same additives. I personally would only use water and no additives you want to rule out the oils.
Good advice as always, but I am beginning to suspect our new friend is also allergic to making it herself. :secret:
 

coconutoliveallergyp

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"our new friend is also allergic to making it herself. " that was rude, & wasn't necessary to say... I don't appreciate that
 

Zany_in_CO

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"our new friend is also allergic to making it herself. " that was rude, & wasn't necessary to say... I don't appreciate that
Aw, I am SO sorry. I didn't mean to be rude, just teasing... please accept my apologies. 🙏
It's just that, from my point of view, i.e., wanting to help in whatever way I can, you don't seem to be interested in making "saponified oils" although that's where I and others can be the most help. It's also the best way to get exactly what you want. It's also the point of joining SMF, I might add.

Bottom Line: Do you or do you not want to learn to make "saponified oils"?

ETA: When I was in your shoes way back when, and I discovered that I could learn to make soap, I didn't waste any time doing just that. I am forever grateful to my mentors for being there to help me accomplish my goal. It's been a fun ride. I'd hate to see you miss out on what could be a very satisfying experience.
 
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Aromasuzie

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I am sorry to hear about the skin issues you have to deal with. Have you tried other products besides soap? I went through a phase of using powders to cleanse myself, but I do like my scrubby ingredients. I've used rice flour mixed with water or could could add a hydrosol like rose instead. If you want to use oil, you could make yourself a sugar scrub with oils you know you don't react to. I'm a great fan of jojoba oil as its a liquid wax and it's not a nut oil either. It does have oleic acid 10-13% but sometimes some components actions are buffered by other ingredients. I see you've tried Apricot Kernel oil, that has a higher oleic acid % than jojoba. I agree with others on grapeseed oil having issues with rancidity. Maybe you need to use something else to allow your skin to settle down before trying a soap product and in the meantime look at making 1 soap oils that you know haven't caused issues in the past. It least you know exactly what is in them. They may not make the best soap for if you want to wash with soap, it's probably your best option. Good luck on your journey.
 

coconutoliveallergyp

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No that's not true at all... I do want and am learning how to make my own soap. It's just that it takes time before the whole process is complete. First I have to figure out what oils/butters to use since I'm so sensitive to so many of them and the ones I can use cause rancidity. I have to first buy utensils, bowls, etc and lye, which takes a few days to arrive once ordered. Then I have to make my 1st batch which if it's anything like cooking probably won't come out right the first time. And then there's a long curing process, 4-6wks for most bars. So in the meantime I'm still on the lookout for a great soap to buy because I can see that it's going to take a while before I successfully make my own bar. It's not like once I start making it that's the end of my problems. And then I still have to make sense of all of the language. For example, people have been saying "you can superfat it with xyz," I don't know what that means at all... So I'm still trying to see if I can find the easy way out before I fully commit to soapmaking.

Aromasuzie: I appreciate your suggestion. I actually have some rice flour sitting around that I have been wanting to get rid of. And I happen to have rose hydrosol too in the freezer. Thanks for reminding me, I'm gonna try that combination.
 

ImpKit

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Search Royalty Soaps on YouTube and look for a playlist called The Royal Creative Academy. It covers the basics of soap making, including providing some equipment lists / recommendations for supplies that can be acquired fairly cost effectively. It also provides links to a couple pages of supplemental reading that help explain the basics, including terminology, or soap making. And it's all available for free, so you don't need to invest in anything to learn.

As for superfat... that is a term referring to intentionally not using enough lye to saponify all of your oils. In so doing you leave a percentage of the oils as free floating / suspended in the soap. A lower superfat percentage can help reduce the chance of rancidity since those unsaponified oils are more prone to going rancid. Lower superfats can also create a slightly firmer bar of soap. A typical superfat is around 5% but some types of recipes, particularly high coconut oil soaps, will recommend higher superfats to offset the cleansing strength of the base oils.
 

Aromasuzie

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@coconutoliveallergyp I absolutely love rose hydrosol, I use it as a cleanser/toner for my face. Yes, soap making is rather scary when you first start, but it can be addictive. I usually use my nose when it comes to rancidity, it might be better to buy small batches of grapeseed oil to make the soap and to use quickly once cured. I had a quick google and couldn't find anyone that mentioned using it as a one oil soap. Have you tried rice bran oil? Lovin soap studio made a one oil soap out of it, didn't sound too bad.

The only other suggestion to make would be to try tallow or lard, but understand if you're not willing to try for ethical reasons. I know a lot of people with oil issues find soaps made with either of these ingredients help their skin dramatically.
 

cmzaha

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Obsidian: Okay, don't judge me but I have uncommon reactions. I get a skin-crawling sensation every time I use anything coconut based. I feel it esp in my fingers and toes. One time I tried a shower gel from a homemade business and felt that sensation all over the lower part of my leg. It was disturbing... and I think it was a coconut based shower gel. Then I get pimples from anything olive-oil based. Coconut oil gives pimples, too. Shea butter dries my skin out in a way where my hands sound like rubbing sandpaper together and I can snag mittens, gloves, towels if I use it. It also causes an allergic reaction if I use it as a lip balm for example, my lips and tongue start burning... sometimes I get dyshidrosis, that happens a lot with petrolem-based lotions (little bumps all over my fingers). Cocoa butter causes pimples. And as ImpKid stated, a lot of these oils/butters share proteins so I have pretty much a negative reaction to other things related to them. so I've tried mango butter, kokum butter, cupuacu butter and got these same negative reactions... I guess my problem could be internal, never really thought about that.
Keep in mind a lot of butter including Shea has latex properties and a person allergic to latex can have problems with shea. I absolutely cannot use shea straight on my skin or in lotions but I can use high shea soaps that are not high superfatted soaps. My soaps are usually superfatted around 2% so I do not have a lot of free oil in my soap. As for the skin-crawling sensation, it can come from high CO soap, or even high Oleic Acid soap for some people. It mostly depends on formulas, which is why you have to put in the time to make your own. Most sellers are on the superfat wagon and higher CO for lather. Many of my soaps are also low CO 10-15% depending on who I am making them for. When targeting my men's market I would use 17-18% CO/PKO for women 12-15% average. All would be in the 2% superfat range some 1%. Again I will mention you are dealing with soap, not the original triglycerides, which have been transformed into glycerin and soap once they have been broken during the course of saponification and not the oil itself.
 

MGM

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This probably isn't the right board to post this thought on.... but soap isn't actually necessary to good hygiene <duck>. Or, if you do want to use a soap or a detergent bar, you don't have to use it on your whole body.
I'm currently reading _Clean_ by James Hamblin, which is very interesting. It sounds like your skin/health issues are significant enough that you may need workarounds to what the rest of us use every day. That's fine; we all have "normal" things that we just can't do (eat gluten, eat nuts, see without glasses, etc.etc.). Maybe you need a super special soap, or maybe you need other ways of cleaning and then moisturizing afterward.
 
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