Superfat vs high conditioning numbers

[Feelin' Soapy]

Can you help me understand the different goals or outcomes of increasing the superfat of a recipe vs using a recipe with a very high conditioning number? How would a high superfat soap compare on my skin to a soap with a very high conditioning property?

I notice that if I increase the superfat percent in the lye calculator, the amounts of the oils stay the same but the amounts of water and lye decrease while all the recipe properties (including conditioning) stay the same.

When I make soap, I've been using titanium dioxide from a jar that I have previously dispersed it in oil. So when I add a tablespoon or two of dispersed TD to my oils, have I been superfatting my soaps all along?

 

[earlene]

TD does not effect the SF. Oils and lye effect the SF.

What superfat means is that you have extra oil that the lye cannot interact with, therefore you have excess oil in your end product.

If you want a higher conditioning number, don't adjust your SF or your lye. Adjust your oils to produce the higher number. Be aware, though, that when you increase one number, others will decrease, because those number have to add up to 100 (as they are percentages.)

 

[GemstonePony]

Superfat is how much of the molecules that could become soap you're choosing to leave unreacted, both to make sure your NaOH completely reacts and to purposefully give all the other soap molecules even more stuff to remove in addition to the oils from your skin. Soap is a wash-off product, so your skin won't gain much moisture, it just won't lose as much.
The less soap is in your soap the more likely it is to go rancid, but some oils are less prone to rancidity than others, and most recipes will be fine with 2-7% SF, oils and butters depending.
Edited to remove misinformation, please refer to Deanna's post further down.

 

[Feelin' Soapy]

Thank you, earlene and GemstonePony. If I'm understanding correctly then, the better way to enhance the moisturizing of my soap is by adjusting oils, not increasing SF.
So I have 2 questions:
1. I have based all my recipes on a 5% SF. Since my TD is previously dispersed in oil, I'm wondering if by adding a tablespoon of TD in oil, am I increasing my SF?
2. For what reasons would I choose to increase SF rather than adjust my oils to increase the conditioning number?

 

[cmzaha]

The feel and quality of your soaps are going to have to do more with your combination of oils than superfat. I really pay very little attention to the soap calc numbers, superfatting 2-3%, other than my salt bars with I superfat 17 % and my soaps are not drying. In fact, the only real number I pay attention to is the cleansing number which I keep around 10-11%. A well-balanced soap does not need a high superfat other than a salt bar. Also, drains are not fond of a lot of free oils going down them especially old cranky plumbing or in areas with notoriously bad sewer systems.

 

[GemstonePony]

Unless you're adding a LOT of TD, you're probably not increasing your SF enough to matter.
Also, listen to the wisdom of @cmzha. The only numbers I pay attention to are cleansing and longevity. All of the reasons I SF higher are due to the limitations of my tools and my own inexperience, such as:
1. I'm doing a tiny experimental batch and my scale just isn't that accurate, so I have to go with the smallest integer under my lye requirement to be safe.
2. I'm trying a new recipe but I think it might be too cleansing, so I'll hedge my bets slightly so it's not a total loss.
3. Oil spill, pouring mishap, or scale shenanigans. If I can verify how far it went off course, I'll try to correct it. My goal at that point simply becomes saving the batch, and I'll accept a higher SF for that. Mistakes may have to be used a bit sooner, but they can still be functional soap.

My goal, of course, is to have my soaps work with my and my friends and family's skin types with a 2-3% SF. Higher SFs are an ok safety net for a formula trial and an acceptable alternative to an unusable batch, but they're not a good long-term crafting goal.

 

[Feelin' Soapy]

Thanks so much for all your input on this. There's so many factors that all have their own effect on the finished soap. It would be interesting to have a bar of every tweak side-by-side for comparison, but that will never happen. It's tough enough waiting at least 4 weeks after I make a batch just to know how that one turned out! I just made my 24th batch yesterday, and I will still be learning even after my 240th batch!

 

[Todd Ziegler]

I use the super fat number as a safety measure. I use extra oil to disperse my colorants and by using a low SF, 2%,I can safely add the extra oils to my recipe and be assured that my final SF will be around 4 or 5 percent. Most of the time it ends up being just 3% or 4% SF in the final tally.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Most oils and butters contain plenty of molecules that can't react with an alkali and become soap. I believe "Moisturizing" is approximately how much of your material can't become soap..."

I take it you mean the "Conditioning" number? If so, I've spent a lot of time trying to help people understand what the Soapcalc "numbers" mean and I've tried to make this information easily accessible, so folks don't have to guess about this anymore. Please go to my "Soapy Stuff" articles and read the one about "Soapcalc numbers what do they really mean" to learn what the "Conditioning" number represents.

The Soapcalc "numbers" only look at the various fatty acids in the recipe. They don't tell you anything about the effects of superfat, unsaponifiable content, additives, etc.

A pet peeve of mine is the fact that the names are really awful choices because they're so misleading. "Cleansing" isn't about whether the soap can clean or not. (Yes, even a zero cleansing soap can clean). And "conditioning" doesn't really tell you much about whether a soap recipe will be mild (conditioning) or not, because it doesn't include all of the fatty acids that add mildness.

Use the "numbers" as a general guide to understand the fatty acid profile, nothing else. And please, please, please ignore the names. A person simply can't interpret these names as an accurate description of the function of the fatty acids they represent.

Cleansing isn't truly an indicator of a soap's ability to clean; it's a measure of how harsh the soap may be to the skin. Conditioning isn't truly conditioning in the sense that a lotion is conditioning; it's very roughly a measure of mildness. And the effect of ricinoleic acid (castor oil) gets way, waaaaay too much importance in the Bubbly, Creamy, and Conditioning numbers -- to the point it makes these "numbers" almost meaningless.

As far as unsaponifiable content goes -- Most fats typically used for soap making do not have a high unsaponifiable content. With the exceptions of shea and avocado, the main soap making fats contain less than 2% unsaponifiable content, and many contain under 1%.

 

[GemstonePony]

"...Most oils and butters contain plenty of molecules that can't react with an alkali and become soap. I believe "Moisturizing" is approximately how much of your material can't become soap..."

I take it you mean the "Conditioning" number? If so, I've spent a lot of time trying to help people understand what the Soapcalc "numbers" mean and I've tried to make this information easily accessible, so folks don't have to guess about this anymore. Please go to my "Soapy Stuff" articles and read the one about "Soapcalc numbers what do they really mean" to learn what the "Conditioning" number represents.

The Soapcalc "numbers" only look at the various fatty acids in the recipe. They don't tell you anything about the effects of superfat, unsaponifiable content, additives, etc.

A pet peeve of mine is the fact that the names are really awful choices because they're so misleading. "Cleansing" isn't about whether the soap can clean or not. (Yes, even a zero cleansing soap can clean). And "conditioning" doesn't really tell you much about whether a soap recipe will be mild (conditioning) or not, because it doesn't include all of the fatty acids that add mildness.

Use the "numbers" as a general guide to understand the fatty acid profile, nothing else. And please, please, please ignore the names. A person simply can't interpret these names as an accurate description of the function of the fatty acids they represent.

Cleansing isn't truly an indicator of a soap's ability to clean; it's a measure of how harsh the soap may be to the skin. Conditioning isn't truly conditioning in the sense that a lotion is conditioning; it's very roughly a measure of mildness. And the effect of ricinoleic acid (castor oil) gets way, waaaaay too much importance in the Bubbly, Creamy, and Conditioning numbers -- to the point it makes these "numbers" almost meaningless.

As far as unsaponifiable content goes -- Most fats typically used for soap making do not have a high unsaponifiable content. With the exceptions of shea and avocado, the main soap making fats contain less than 2% unsaponifiable content, and many contain under 1%.

Shoot I'm sorry, I've edited my post to remove the misinformation. I think I did read that article at one point, but it must've gone in my eyes and out the back of my head. @JoyfulSudz I was mistaken, please refer to DeeAnna's posts and resources.

 

[Feelin' Soapy]

As I wrote earlier, there's a ton of factors involved in all this. It seemed very complicated when I did my first batch. Then a few batches later, it seemed more simple. And now that I've done 24 batches, I've learned enough to know how very complex this all really is. Kind of like the way I knew all there was to know back when I was 16, and then the older I got, the more I realized I had to learn!

 

[earlene]

Thank you, earlene and GemstonePony. If I'm understanding correctly then, the better way to enhance the moisturizing of my soap is by adjusting oils, not increasing SF.
So I have 2 questions:
1. I have based all my recipes on a 5% SF. Since my TD is previously dispersed in oil, I'm wondering if by adding a tablespoon of TD in oil, am I increasing my SF?
2. For what reasons would I choose to increase SF rather than adjust my oils to increase the conditioning number?

#1. I take it you don't discount your oils for your recipe to offset the oil in your TD preparation? Then yes, you are increasing the SF. But I expect not a great deal, but of course that depends on how much oil is in the dispersed TD that you are adding to the recipe.

IF I were going to add oil-dispersed TD to a recipe, I would use oil from the recipe itself. But I use water-dispersed TD and even then, use a higher lye concentration (less water), so am not really adding much extra water.

#2. Increasing SF will NOT increase the conditioning number. It just does not work that way. Try it out using your lye calculator. Set your recipe to 5% SF, look at the numbers; then set your SF to anything else, even 80% and look at your numbers again. What you get is the exact same conditioning number no matter what SF you choose.

See examples below:

 

[Feelin' Soapy]

Thank you for the detailed explanations.

#1. No, I haven't discounted my oils because I didn't think the tablespoon of extra oil with the TD was enough to make much difference.

#2. Is there an advantage of dispersing my TD in water instead of oil?

#3. I had done that same experiment in the lye calculator and saw that increasing SF didn't affect the conditioning or other property numbers at all. I just wasn't sure exactly what increasing the SF actually does for the finished soap.

 

[earlene]

IF your TD is dispersable in both, you can do either. But check with your source; they aren't all dispersable in both; some are either/or. I prefer using distilled water to using oil, in my TD, simply because I don't have to worry about it sitting too long in oil that might go rancid. I have also used glycerin for TD dispersal, and it's okay, too.

I am not a good one to address the possible benefit of a higher SF, because I don't find it beneficial in my soaps. I think a well balanced recipe doesn't need extra to make the soap feel better. I believe too much extra fat is an invitation to rancidity, as well as inviting clogged water pipes. But then I've begun to feel the same way about some additives as well.

It is recommended to use a higher SF to offset the harshness of a high CO content soap, such as a salt bar. But for a nice all purpose bath soap; I don't see any benefit.

And, no, 1 extra T of oil in a large batch wouldn't make much difference. But it would really depend on your batch size. If your total batch size is 450 grams, it would certainly have more of an impact than if your total batch size is 2500 grams.

 

[DeeAnna]

... No, I haven't discounted my oils because I didn't think the tablespoon of extra oil with the TD was enough to make much difference....

You don't need to guess; you can easily figure it out.

Set up a recipe using the same total amount of fat as you normally use for your batches.
Note the total weight of NaOH for this original recipe.
Weigh a tablespoon of oil. If you don't feel like doing that, a good estimate of the weight is 14 grams.
Add that many extra grams (or ounces) to one of the fats in the recipe. Don't make any other changes.
Recalculate the NaOH weight for this revised recipe. The NaOH weight should increase somewhat.
Increase the superfat percentage for this revised recipe and recalculate. Stop when the NaOH weight for the revised recipe is the same as for the original recipe.
The difference in the superfat percentage is the effect of adding 1 tablespoon of extra fat.

 

[Obsidian]

When I first started soaping, I concentrated on making a conditioning soap, with numbers in the 60s. I also used a high sf, 8-10, thinking this would produce a soap moisturizing and gentle to the skin.

What really happened is I made soap that made my skin tight and unhappy.
I completely redid my recipe, concentrating on the cleansing number instead. As already mentioned by DeeAnna, its really how stripping a soap is.

Now I don't even look at the conditiong, after many test batches, I know a cleansing number between 11-15 is preferred by myself, family and friends.

With soap calc numbers, higher in the suggested range isn't always better.

If you post your recipe, we could offer suggestions to get a nice mild soap if that's what you are after.

 

[Feelin' Soapy]

Here's the recipe I've been using for most of my recent batches. I'd love to hear what you think, especially since none of these are cured enough yet to try
(I used my "print screen" button but it looks like I only got the top half to show. Not sure how to post the whole thing.)

 

[Feelin' Soapy]

Here it is again -- I printed and scanned it. Must be a simpler way to do this...

 

[earlene]

You can decrease your size of your browser from 100% to say 75% or whatever will make it all fit onto your screen and then screen-shot it or use snipping tool.

For FireFox, that's what I do, and I think all browsers have that option.

--->>

Just be sure to put the window back to 100% again before you close your browser or you might open it up again and wonder why everything is so small. I've done that a few times & it is disorienting.

 

[Feelin' Soapy]

Thank you! I've been trying to figure out how to do that for a while!
Looking forward to hearing your input on my recipe.