super fatting

[elvira]

I read and saw videos of superfatting and They said that the extra fat should be added after reaching trace point. but I went to the brambleberry calculator for super fatting and the amounts are given without indicaditon of this separation.
If I try it as it came from the brambleberry will it work?
Thanks
Puzzled Elvira

 

[dixiedragon]

When I learned soapmaking 15+ years ago, the "rule" was that you saved a "special" oil (sweet almond, avocado, etc) and added it right after trace. Kevin Dunn has tested this and proved that adding that special oil at the end makes no difference, in CP soap making.

In HP soapmaking, the special oil / superfat is added after the cook, when most of the saponification is finished.

However, whether you are making CP or HP, you still include your special oil /superfatting oil in your recipe calculations. If you like, you can put a note in the box which oil you added after trace (for CP) or after the cook (for HP), if you choose to do that. But the superfatting oil does need to be included in your calculations.

 

[cmzaha]

 

[Tritia]

I work with CP, so my experience is with that, not HP.
How I understand the process is that the superfat is the end result of the oil to lye water ratio. During the 24-48 hours of cure time after your pour, the lye water converts as much oil as it can into soap. The saponification process. Whatever oil is leftover stays there in your soap and is consider your superfat.
You can plan for a specific amount of superfat in your soap by inputting the percentage you want. I typically shoot for 5% - 10% myself. When you specify the percentage with the calculator, it automatically adjusts your lye to water ratio with the amount of oils used.
If you want to really get into it, lizardlady is a good start. http://lizardladysoapinfo.blogspot.com/2014/08/understanding-superfat.html?m=1

 

[C0hrisLynn]

I don't have a lot of experience with CP soaping, but I learned in doing my HP soaps I don't add the superfats into my calculations. I just set aside whatever oils/butters or glycerine I want to use as SF and add them shortly before I mold my soap, after a zap test is negative. I think my soaps are better for it, I feel like more of the SF are still present in the soap because the lye was pretty much gone when they went in. Idk, if CP can be calculated to work like that?

 

[cmzaha]

Even in hp you cannot pick and choose what is going to be left as superfat. If you add in more oil than necessary for the lye to play with you will have a superfat, but you do not know if it is a particular oil that is leftover. Even with hp saponification will continue for awhile and the lye will react with whatever oil it wants. You may end up with a better chance using hp, but you just do not know. Superfatting also does not guarantee a nice soap. I low superfat and my soaps are not in the least drying. It all in the balance of ingredients.

When I learned soapmaking 15+ years ago, the "rule" was that you saved a "special" oil (sweet almond, avocado, etc) and added it right after trace. Kevin Dunn has tested this and proved that adding that special oil at the end makes no difference, in CP soap making.

In HP soapmaking, the special oil / superfat is added after the cook, when most of the saponification is finished.

However, whether you are making CP or HP, you still include your special oil /superfatting oil in your recipe calculations. If you like, you can put a note in the box which oil you added after trace (for CP) or after the cook (for HP), if you choose to do that. But the superfatting oil does need to be included in your calculations.

Yes you do need to calculate your superfatting oil

 

[C0hrisLynn]

I know that lye works on whatever oils are present, that's why, as I stated, I calculate mine at a 0% superfat. So the lye I use is strictly for the base oils I use. As far as the recipe goes, that superfat I use does not exist. And, since I add those after there is basically no lye whatesoever still active in the soap (because it is fully cooked and technically useable), I feel confident that some of those superfats are still in my finished soaps. I do not calculate in my SF oils, this is a trick I learned from a seasoned soaper from way back (she said it was one of her little tricks to a better soap), and my soaps all turn out great. Hope this helps! And when I get into the whole CP thing, I'll have to see what the best way to formulate those recipes are.

 

[DeeAnna]

...since I add those after there is basically no lye whatesoever still active in the soap... I feel confident that some of those superfats are still in my finished soaps....

What we'd like the lye to do and what it actually does are two entirely different things. What seems to be "common sense" from a human perspective is not necessarily what actually happens on a molecular level during saponification. See this: https://classicbells.com/soap/superfat.html

"...I do not calculate in my SF oils, this is a trick I learned from a seasoned soaper from way back (she said it was one of her little tricks to a better soap), and my soaps all turn out great...."

I respect that this is your choice to make your soap this way, so I won't try to change your mind. But you should expect some push back from the seasoned soapers here on SMF. It's not a "trick" I will ever use nor will I ever advocate that others use it.

 

[C0hrisLynn]

What we'd like the lye to do and what it actually does are two entirely different things. What seems to be "common sense" from a human perspective is not necessarily what actually happens on a molecular level during saponification. See this: https://classicbells.com/soap/superfat.html

"...I do not calculate in my SF oils, this is a trick I learned from a seasoned soaper from way back (she said it was one of her little tricks to a better soap), and my soaps all turn out great...."

I respect that this is your choice to make your soap this way, so I won't try to change your mind. But you should expect some push back from the seasoned soapers here on SMF. It's not a "trick" I will ever use nor will I ever advocate that others use it.

I respect and appreciate any advice I can get from you all who have been doing this a long time, and have a lot of information to share. I am aware that the SF we put in our soaps doesn't stay in it's initial, raw form when it's added to soap. I do believe that they do help your soap to be much less stripping, give it a really nice feel and lather, and that the overall general goodness that they have doesn't entirely disappear. If it did, then why would anyone spend the money and time on SF if it is of no real value? And I know there are many different ways to make soap, I love learning about new techniques and styles to do it. I don't honestly know why it would be so bad to make the soap the way I do with not factoring in the SF, the soap still comes out nice and cures well and is great soap to use.

 

[shunt2011]

It's doesn't take any extra time or money to do a SF so I'm a bit confused. You enter your entire recipe into the soap calculator with whatever SF you want and done. I don't believe SF adds anything to my lather except too much SF will inhibit lather and can leave my skin feeling sticky. The lye takes what it wants especially in CP. I don't do HP except shave soap and add my SF after the cook but it's still figured into the recipe, I just keep it aside until I want to add it. Why make a process harder than it has to be?

You can certainly do it the way you do it. But for new folks it's much more confusing and an extra math step.

 

[SaltedFig]

@C0hrisLynn It is likely that your seasoned soaper has taught you to judge the SF by eye. If you are using the same recipe, you probably have been taught to judge this reasonably well, and this would be why your method works for you.

It would not be very good for a beginner to try this (especially without the expert at their shoulder, as you had), because it is incredibly easy to misjudge an amount when you're "eyeballing" ingredients, especially in the early learning phase.

An example - I have been hand-making bread for a long time. I make it often enough that I can just get the ingredients out of the cupboard and put them together by eye (varying them according to whatever type of bread I want in the end). I can only demonstrate that, I cannot give the recipe to a person. But if I measure each ingredient, and write out each step, I can give that recipe to a 100 people . It is the same for you - you have been taught how to make it by eye, but if you want to teach someone your soap recipe, or convert it into a cold process recipe, you will need to document it well, so it can be replicated a stable and consistent way.

... when I get into the whole CP thing, I'll have to see what the best way to formulate those recipes are.

To help you transition your recipes to CP recipes, start weighing the amounts you are adding for your superfat and noting that on your recipe.
Once you are ready to convert a recipe, enter the full ingredients list (including the extra for your superfat) into a soap calculator at zero percent (at first).
Then (in your soap calculator, with the oils staying as they are) start adjusting the superfat amount upwards, until the lye figure matches (as close as you can reasonably get it) the lye amount you have been using for your HP recipes. The superfat percentage you get to is the one you like using. Note that down, and for future CP recipes, you can enter that superfat percentage and all of the oils (including your superfat oils) at once.
Last of all, just lower the water content to somewhere around 30% to 33%, and your existing recipes are good to go for CP soapmaking

@elvira Yes, it will work

 

[cmzaha]

The other issues to thinking you are controlling superfat by using a 0 superfat is the fact you do not know the actual SAP value of the batch of oils you are using, since SAP values are average range. Several factors can change the sap value including age of the oil, so you would have to test each batch of every oil to know the true sap value, and basically every time you make a batch of soap in one or all oils have been sitting for awhile. This is why people use a superfat, to have extra oil for the lye to react. It does not take superfatting to make good soap, while I do superfat for the reasons above I do not depend on it for the feel of my soap. You balance of oils used are going to accomplish how your soaps feels.

As for learning from someone that has made soap for years info has changed tremendously in the years I have been making soap and my soap has become better and better. A lot of information is excellent, but sadly, there is a lot of bad info floating around on the internet and You Tube. As with any industry you learn and progress or your product never gets better. Some of us would shudder at what we made in our beginning days...