Sulfur Soap Please

[Zgrumpyoldman]

It seems to me that sulfur soap is very tricky to make. During my search I found little information regarding making a sulfur soap. I mean I read all the posts regarding sulfur soap and here is what I found, thank you DeeAnna:
1. You can incorporate around 1% of sulfur powder into cold process soap and it will end up ok.
2. For more percentage of sulfur, you are better off incorporating sulfur in a hot process after sanctification although it is hard to mix.
3. Sulfur will react with water and water will react with lye.

DeeAnna, thankfully, posted a link to a Robert Akira from Brazil who used sulfur as 4% and 10% in cold process soap. His 4% sulfur in a soap was close to a failure while his 10% sulfur soap was better but not huge success.
Facts:
1 .There are commercially available sulfur soap with high percentage of sulfur, as high as 10%. How ??
2. These soaps don't have a foul odor and when lathering it seems they are not reacting with water to create H2So4. Why ?
More questions:
1. For personal use, I tried to emulate Robert Akira recipe by including sulfur at 12% of a well balanced soap formula, CP. After trace, the batter stayed soft and only that rotten egg smell was observed.
Now if the soap failed and the batter separated, what do I have ? oils and sulfur ? oils lye and sulfur ? a mixture of all ?

help

 

[DeeAnna]

I suspect the secret to a decent sulfur soap is controlling the exposure of the elemental sulfur to water and also to NaOH. I'm pretty sure the commercial soap makers mix elemental sulfur under controlled conditions into an alkali-neutral finished soap with a low water content.

Most small scale soap makers don't have the equipment to accomplish this. Instead we try to fake it with a hot process soap method and add the sulfur after the soap is saponified but still stirrable. That still exposes the sulfur to higher water and warmer temps than the commercial guys, so it works ... kinda.

Sulfur powder doesn't react quickly with water. If you're using a commercial sulfur soap and exposing it to water only during your bath, the sulfur doesn't have a lot of time to play around with the water and make a stink before it washes down the drain.

I suspect (never tried it so I don't know for certain) if you left the soap bar in a puddle of water after your bath, you might smell more of that rotten egg odor because the sulfur will be exposed to water for a longer time.

The rotten egg smell is hydrogen sulfide. That's what will form when water and elemental sulfur react at or near room temperature, not sulfuric acid. (edit: When I was writing in 2013 about sulfur making sulfuric acid when exposed to water, I didn't fully understand the chemistry of what elemental sulfur does when mixed with plain water at room temp.)

"...Now if the soap failed and the batter separated, what do I have ? oils and sulfur ? oils lye and sulfur ? a mixture of all ?..."

A stinky, gloppy mess?

Honestly, that question is impossible to answer. NaOH does react with elemental sulfur, and I gather the result is a mixture of sodium sulfates and sodium sulfides. There are different versions of these chemicals that can form depending on temperature and concentration. But I'm not qualified to guess any further than this -- it's way out of my sphere.

***
edit: Here are the two threads from 2013-14 about sulfur soap in case anyone wants to track them down: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/adding-sulfur-to-soap.40258/#post-378097 and https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/sapwns-soaps.35682/page-2

 

[Nona'sFarm]

It seems to me that sulfur soap is very tricky to make.

Just curious, why would you want to add sulfur to soap?

 

[DeeAnna]

It's used to treat fungal problems on the skin. Maybe it's used to treat other skin issues too, but I'm not familiar with the other uses.

edit: Checked my notes to refresh my memory. People also use sulfur soap to help with rosacea, dermatitis, and acne. Another use is to to help repel chiggers, although I'd think sulfur dusted on your pant legs might be more effective. I haven't researched whether sulfur soap is efficacious (whether it actually works) for these problems, so take this info with a grain of salt.

 

[Zgrumpyoldman]

Thank you DeeAnna so much for your explanation and help. You are a treasure to this forum. For months I have read your posts which are very educational, and now I joined the forum and got the chance to sincerely thank you.

Just curious, why would you want to add sulfur to soap?

Nona, As DeeAnna stated, sulfur is anti-fungal, anti-bacterial, and anti demodex. It was accepted by the medical society as a topical treatment for various conditions previously.

 

[DeeAnna]

Here are some cautions to remember if you are thinking about making soap with sulfur --

Sulfur soap is a difficult soap to make, there is a good chance of failure, and there are health risks involved with making the soap. Plan ahead of time -- How are you going to make the soap? How are you going to control the sulfur dust and hydrogen sulfide gas?

Do not inhale sulfur powder. It is irritating to the eyes, nose, throat, and lungs. Wear a particulate respirator and use very good ventilation when handling the powder.

Be aware that sulfur in hot soap may evolve hydrogen sulfide gas (rotten egg odor). Hydrogen sulfide gas is toxic, not just stinky. Your nose quickly becomes used to hydrogen sulfide, so you cannot use your sense of smell as a safety guide. A respirator will not effectively remove this gas, so don't count on a respirator either for protection against hydrogen sulfide.

Use very good air ventilation and a healthy dose of caution when making this soap. If you smell rotten egg odor, don't ignore it. If your nose and eyes start to burn from sulfur powder in the air, don't ignore that either. Open a window and turn the exhaust fan on high. Better yet, make this soap outdoors.​

Suggestions about the types of sulfur to use --

The types of sulfur (sulphur) powder that work well in soap are -- sublimed sulfur (aka flowers of sulfur), precipitated sulfur (aka milk of sulfur, lime sulfur, sulfur boiled with lime), or washed sulfur (sulfur treated with aqueous ammonia). Sulfur flakes will not work, because they are much too coarse and abrasive.

Sift sulfur powder to remove any large chunks before use. If the sulfur powder is crusted over, very chunky, or otherwise showing signs of absorbing moisture, you may not want to use the product in soap.
​

Tips for making the soap --

Sulfur melts at 235-246 deg F (113-119 deg C). You do not want to get the soap temperature anywhere close to that hot. If using a cold process method, do not CPOP (a method of warming the soap in the oven) and do not insulate the mold to hold in heat. If making the soap with a hot process method, do not use a high temperature method -- keep temps as cool as possible.

You may want to put the molded soap on a wire cooling rack and keep a fan blowing on it too keep the soap cool. A slab or tray mold may be a better choice than a loaf mold to encourage faster heat loss.

Do not put this soap in the fridge or freezer. You run the risk of filling the fridge/freezer with hydrogen sulfide gas and contaminating your food. Your fridge/freezer may never be the same again.​

 

[Zgrumpyoldman]

I am speechless DeeAnna, with this post added to previous posts and threads about sulfur soap, you have given us more information about sulfur soap than any search engine can provide. I salute you. Precautions are very important in any soap we make, even the "simplest" soap.
I hope this information will not discourage any soap maker from attempting a sulfur soap. This is valuable information to soap makers. Whether for a personal use or for commercial sale, there is a demand for such a soap and historically there are a lot of literature and medicinal papers on the use of sulfur and sulfur soap as a medicinal remedy.

 

[DeeAnna]

By adding all this detail, I don't mean to be discouraging either, but I do want people to have realistic expectations and know the safety issues before they leap into this. Forewarned is forearmed.

Before I bring my role in this thread as safety advisor and devil's advocate to a close, I want to also point out that old remedies are not necessarily useful remedies. It might be that these remedies are the only things the folks of the time had available to them but that doesn't mean they work. Or that they are even safe, as witness the historical use of mercury or arsenic compounds in some medicinal soaps. Even soap makers of a century ago expressed their doubts that medicinal soaps were efficacious, so it's not just my skepticism showing here.

In 1922, E.G. Thomssen wrote --

"...Soap is often used for the conveyance of various mendicants, antiseptics or other material presumably beneficial for treatment of skin diseases. While soap is an ideal medium for the carrying of such materials, it is an unfortunate condition that when incorporated with the soap, all but a very few of the numerous substances thus employed lose their medicinal properties and effectiveness for curing skin disorders, as well as any antiseptic value the substance may have.


"Soap is of such a nature chemically that many of the substances used for skin troubles are either entirely decomposed or altered to such an extent so as to impair their therapeutic value. Thus many of the claims made for various medicated soaps fall flat, and really have no more antiseptic or therapeutic merit than ordinary soap which in itself has certain germicidal and cleaning value...." --Source: Soap Making Manual, EG Thomssen, 1922, pg 76-77.​

 

[Nona'sFarm]

Sulfur soap is a difficult soap to make, there is a good chance of failure, and there are health risks involved with making the soap. Plan ahead of time -- How are you going to make the soap? How are you going to control the sulfur dust and hydrogen sulfide gas?

Wow! Thanks for all the information.
After reading this, I know it is not something I am ready to try. For now, I'll stick with Tea Tree Oil and Neem Oil, know these have their cautions too and may not be as effective, but know i am not ready to be as precise / careful as is needed to work with sulfur.

 

[Nostalgicgranny]

I've made several batches of sulfur soap for dandruff. It works pretty good for that. A lot of feed stores carry it for sores and skin afflictions on animals. Somehow I got the impression that 10% is the maximum amount allowed by law. It's been so long since I researched it, that I can't remember where I pulled that info from.

In my trials with it, none of my experiments ever worked when it was added before the lye and oils saponified. It just did not play well with lye. Cp or hp. It only worked when hp was finished cooking. Even then make sure to add a generous sf. Too little sf and your soap will seperate. So I figured PH played a big role in success. It stinks. If at all possible add the sulfur outside. Store it outside too.

 

[DeeAnna]

I've summarized my tips about sulfur soap on my website -- https://classicbells.com/soap/sulfurSoap.asp

If something doesn't make sense or seems wrong, let me know.

 

[AliOop]

.. you are better off incorporating sulfur in a hot process after sanctification
help

I just came here to say thank you, @Zgrumpyoldman, because the autocorrect from "saponification" to "sanctification" gave me a good giggle.

The mental picture was a Monty Python scene, with someone in priestly garb and a tall hat saying to a big kettle of soap (in Latin of course), "Be sanctified!" -- whereupon all the sulfur immediately incorporated beautifully into the soap.

 

[Zgrumpyoldman]

DeeAnna; what a wonderful, delightful and a comprehensive page you have added to Classic Bells Soapy Stuff. I can not thank you enough.

AliOop; Yaa,, I meant to do that,,,, ,,.

The mental picture was a Monty Python scene, with someone in priestly garb and a tall hat saying to a big kettle of soap (in Latin of course), "Be sanctified!" -- whereupon all the sulfur immediately incorporated beautifully into the soap.

Then John Cleese, dressed like Satan grabs the sulfur soap, gives it a sniff, and states: "it smells like home".

 

[AliOop]

AliOop; Yaa,, I meant to do that,,,, ,,.

Then John Cleese, dressed like Satan grabs the sulfur soap, gives it a sniff, and states: "it smells like home".

Yes!!!!!