Soap Sticking to Mold

[gabrielet]

Hello,

Very new to this — only two batches of CP, 100% coconut oil at this time. But I had a problem with unmolding.

I'm wanting a very hard bar, and all I've read tells me that 100% coconut oil soap needs to sit in the mold for a relatively short time — about 8 to 18 hours — or risk it being too hard to cut without crumbling the edges. I just took some loaves out of the mold at 21-hours and part of the soap stuck to the sides, and the bars don't seem very hard, relatively. But I'm assuming they will harden up over time.

I'm using a formula that is supposed to be 20% superfatted, all coconut oil with the exception of lavender.

Formula:

~42 oz. (1191g) Coconut Oil
~14.80 oz. (420g) Distilled Water
~6.05 oz. (171.5g) Sodium Hydroxide
~2.75 tsp. Sodium Lactate
~2.6 oz. Lavender Oil

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yes, coconut oil soap can become very hard fairly fast. While that advice often holds true for most CO soaps ... it is also true that you also have to evaluate YOUR soap to see if it is following that advice. If it isn't going along with the program, then you have to be ready to adapt your plans to fit the situation.

If the soap doesn't seem firm enough to unmold when you expect it should be ready, let it stay in the mold a little longer until it is sufficiently firm enough. Or you could put it in the freezer for awhile if you don't care to wait.

If you're thinking a physically hard bar means a long lasting bar, that's not necessarily true, by the way.

 

[shunt2011]

Yes, CO soap will get hard but won’t last as long as a well formulated bar. CO is much more soluble and will dissolve more quickly.

As DeeAnna said it varies sometimes on how quickly it will come out of the mold.

 

[gabrielet]

Thank you both for your responses.

If you can direct me to a "well formulated bar" that still uses CO as a major component, but is hard and superfatted?

 

[DeeAnna]

A mostly coconut oil bar is going to be hard to formulate if you want a soap with a balanced blend of properties. Hard, yes, mostly CO is going to be hard. Superfat -- the more the merrier in a mostly CO recipe. But longlasting and balanced ... not so much. Why do you want to make a mostly coconut oil soap?

For a hard, long lasting bar, you need more palmitic and stearic acid. In other words, lard, palm, tallow and to a lesser extent, the butters (cooca, mango, shea, etc.) And for a soap with a better balance of properties, people often include fat rich in oleic acid (olive, avocado, high oleic sunflower/safflower/canola, etc.)

You mention in your other thread that you've worked as a scientist in the US, so I assume you're US based, have an inquiring mind, and have access to a wide range of fats. I also shared what it takes to make a balanced recipe in that same thread. By saying "...direct me to a well formulated bar..." do you want someone to just feed you a ready-to-use recipe? Or are you seeking the tools to formulate your own recipes?

 

[gabrielet]

As to why I want only a CO soap, that is primarily because I have access to it and already have much on hand. My "access to a wide range of fats" isn't actually a fact, since I'm retired and live in the New Mexico desert, 40-miles from the nearest town. So what I use, other than coconut oil, I order off the Internet. I've used Kirk's Castile for many years because I like the way it works with hard water. I'm not actively in any scientific discipline at the moment — except perhaps this one.

I would also prefer not to use animal products in my soap — especially lard — which leaves me with the palm oil suggestion you gave. No, I'm not Muslim or Jewish. Many years ago, while managing a medical research laboratory at a university in So. California, I came across some studies by, I believe, Harvard Medical School (could be wrong on that). They were studying substances that affected neurological metabolism in the brain, and they discovered that within six to ten seconds after simply putting a piece of pork fat in the test subjects mouths, they could register a discernible decrease in cerebral electrical activity. That occurs with all animal meats and fats, just very much more-so with pork fat. It's absorbed sublingually, and the human skin is also a very good assimilator of topical substances. A rather excessive explanation to a simple suggestion, I know. :-\

You asked, "...do you want someone to just feed you a ready-to-use recipe?" Yes, that's precisely what I'm asking for. As a beginner I would simply like to make some soap from proven recipes and save my personal research till after I've learned the basics and experienced some successes. Then I can pursue formulating my own recipes.

 

[shunt2011]

I recommend going to the beginners section and read the last 10 or so pages. There are lots of recipes listed so you may find something that appeals to you. Since you are limited in what you use you may just want to play around with a soap calculator and find something that works for you. You just aren't going to make a very good soap with just CO. You could do high Olive Oil and some Coconut but it will require a much longer cure.

 

[DeeAnna]

@gabrielet -- Thank you for sharing your perspective. Now that I know your viewpoint and expectations, I can answer accordingly.

I agree with Shari (shunt) to read the beginners forum, because there are lots of decent recipes there. The Miller's soap website might be another source -- http://www.millersoap.com/

 

[lsg]

Soaping101 YouTube tutorials is also a good place to star.

 

[earlene]

So many people here who make and use Salt Soaps are very happy with 100% CO at about 20% SF and plain table salt equal to the weight in oil. The thing is that most recommend a long cure time, about as long as a Castile, so it can be a bit of a wait before it is at its best. Of course, you can use it earlier, like all soap, and as you use a bar that is younger, the others can continue to cure.

Why not try a 100% CO salt soap and see how you like it? I currently have the slivers of a bar I made in the Spring (it's still young for a salt soap, I believe). It's doesn't seem to last as long as my other soaps, because high CO soaps do melt away faster than soaps with not much CO in them. For me, I find the salt a little scratchy, but not everyone feels the scratchiness that I feel, so you will only know if you try it. I am waiting for a longer cure to see what the improvement everyone talks about brings.

Here are some links about salt bars:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/hot-process-salt-bars.57908/

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/salt-bar-question.61636/

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/tell-me-about-salt-bars-why-great.55002/

Or you could do a Soleseife Bar (Brine soap) which instead of dumping salt into the batter, uses a brine of salt dissolved first in water, then the lye is added to the water. So no solid salt is required. There are threads here about Soleseife Bars as well, but here is one such:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/wow-tried-this-euro-salt-recipe-love-it.44266/

 

[DawninWA]

There's nothing wrong with 100% coconut oil soap. It just melts a little faster, no big deal, just make more. I love a 100% coconut 20% superfat bar for our hard water here.

 

[shunt2011]

I don't care for 100% CO soap unless it's a salt soap. I SF it at 15% and cure it for 6 months. Some folks are sensitive to too much coconut regardless of the SF.

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

I love both the salt bars and 100% coconut oil bars. If you are happy with them: why not?

 

[shunt2011]

I will also say that the only time I get DOS is 100% CO. Not my salt bars though. I made CO soap 3 months ago and everyone has some DOS. Stored the same as all my other soaps. I’m thinking it’s the extra SF causing it.

 

[penelopejane]

A good recipe to start with is 32% palm, 32% OO, 32% CO 4% castor oil. It makes a good hard bar and if your skin doesn’t mind CO it is long lasting and bubbly. Don’t use pomace if you are worried about chemical as pomace is chemically extracted.

I use less than 5% SF because I don’t like soap scum or clogged drains.

 

[gabrielet]

Thank you all for your informative responses, and the great links. I feel like a kid in a special school where the teacher/student ratio is even better than one-to-one.

I think I will follow the counsel here and peruse the beginners page since — uh — I actually am one.

I will also say that the only time I get DOS is 100% CO. Not my salt bars though. I made CO soap 3 months ago and everyone has some DOS. Stored the same as all my other soaps. I’m thinking it’s the extra SF causing it.

From what little I've read, I was under the impression that the DOS was caused by rancid oils, and the one really nice thing about CO is that it has a very low rancidity rate, long shelf-life. Do you have any other ideas as to what causes it in your CO soap? So far, mine haven't shown that result — yet.

So many people here who make and use Salt Soaps are very happy with 100% CO at about 20% SF and plain table salt equal to the weight in oil. The thing is that most recommend a long cure time, about as long as a Castile, so it can be a bit of a wait before it is at its best. Of course, you can use it earlier, like all soap, and as you use a bar that is younger, the others can continue to cure.

Why not try a 100% CO salt soap and see how you like it? I currently have the slivers of a bar I made in the Spring (it's still young for a salt soap, I believe). It's doesn't seem to last as long as my other soaps, because high CO soaps do melt away faster than soaps with not much CO in them. For me, I find the salt a little scratchy, but not everyone feels the scratchiness that I feel, so you will only know if you try it. I am waiting for a longer cure to see what the improvement everyone talks about brings.

Here are some links about salt bars:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/hot-process-salt-bars.57908/

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/salt-bar-question.61636/

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/tell-me-about-salt-bars-why-great.55002/

Or you could do a Soleseife Bar (Brine soap) which instead of dumping salt into the batter, uses a brine of salt dissolved first in water, then the lye is added to the water. So no solid salt is required. There are threads here about Soleseife Bars as well, but here is one such:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/wow-tried-this-euro-salt-recipe-love-it.44266/

I'm not quite clear on the purpose of salt soap. Is it primarily for its exfoliation qualities?

 

[DeeAnna]

Rancidity (DOS) can be caused by the oils naturally oxidizing and continuing to break down over time until they become rancid. Other factors can accelerate the development of rancidity. Examples -- metal contamination in water and other ingredients, exposure to sunlight and UV light sources, air pollution, dust and dirt from handling or the open air, oxidized essential oils, etc.

There are two general kinds of rancidity, IMO. There's DOS (dreaded orange spots) which is the appearance of one or more individual spots of rancidity in the soap. Metallic contamination can cause spots of rancidity, for example. Then there's overall rancidity when the soap turns varying shades of yellow/orange over most or all of the bar. Oxidized fats or essential oils will cause overall rancidity in soap.

Any fat can oxidize and become rancid, although it's true that the saturated fats are usually slower to oxidize than the unsaturated fats. But even saturated fat like coconut oil will eventually go bad. And that can happen sooner than you'd expect if there are other factors to accelerate oxidation.

 

[gabrielet]

Rancidity (DOS) can be caused by the oils naturally oxidizing and continuing to break down over time until they become rancid. Other factors can accelerate the development of rancidity. Examples -- metal contamination in water and other ingredients, exposure to sunlight and UV light sources, air pollution, dust and dirt from handling or the open air, oxidized essential oils, etc.

There are two general kinds of rancidity, IMO. There's DOS (dreaded orange spots) which is the appearance of one or more individual spots of rancidity in the soap. Metallic contamination can cause spots of rancidity, for example. Then there's overall rancidity when the soap turns varying shades of yellow/orange over most or all of the bar. Oxidized fats or essential oils will cause overall rancidity in soap.

Any fat can oxidize and become rancid, although it's true that the saturated fats are usually slower to oxidize than the unsaturated fats. But even saturated fat like coconut oil will eventually go bad. And that can happen sooner than you'd expect if there are other factors to accelerate oxidation.

That all makes perfect sense. There is seldom any single factor involved in a particular phenomenon. I can attest to the fact that coconut oil is not "rancidity proof." I use it to pop corn where I put a quantity of CO in a heavy-bottom, heat dispersal pan, adding the popcorn and then the heat. After it's popped, I just lower the pan into cold water to bring the heat down. If I don't, the heat causes rapid oxidation and the oil turns rancid within minutes. And I mean rancid! It made my eyes water when I took the lid off.

 

[SaltedFig]

That all makes perfect sense. There is seldom any single factor involved in a particular phenomenon. I can attest to the fact that coconut oil is not "rancidity proof." I use it to pop corn where I put a quantity of CO in a heavy-bottom, heat dispersal pan, adding the popcorn and then the heat. After it's popped, I just lower the pan into cold water to bring the heat down. If I don't, the heat causes rapid oxidation and the oil turns rancid within minutes. And I mean rancid! It made my eyes water when I took the lid off.

@gabrielet
If your coconut oil smells rancid within minutes of heating it, then I would suspect the coconut oil was already on the turn (before you started cooking popcorn with it). This will happen if oil is used a second time, or if it's old or has been through a few melts.

Keeping your coconut oil in the refrigerator helps it last longer (says me who keeps mine out ).

Virgin coconut oil is apparently less prone to rancidity than processed coconut oil, if that's of any help to you.

 

[gabrielet]

@gabrielet
If your coconut oil smells rancid within minutes of heating it, then I would suspect the coconut oil was already on the turn (before you started cooking popcorn with it). This will happen if oil is used a second time, or if it's old or has been through a few melts.

Keeping your coconut oil in the refrigerator helps it last longer (says me who keeps mine out ).

Virgin coconut oil is apparently less prone to rancidity than processed coconut oil, if that's of any help to you.

~~~
Thank you for your input. I understand what you are saying, but I'm talking about raising the temp to over 400ºF, and then when it is exposed to air, the oxidation takes place very rapidly. If I quench the temp, there is no rancidity detectable.