Questions on superfatting and percentages??

[Cristy]

Hi all! I'm super new to soaping and already addicted.

I stumbled on an article about a week ago and spent several nights digging for info, recipes, etc. online. I ordered some products and received them yesterday so was able to make my first batch last night after work.

This is very exciting but I have a bit of a problem. I don't understand this business with the superfatting, percentages, etc. I can follow a recipe but I want to understand what this stuff is so that I can someday make my own recipes.

Can you recommend a website where some of this is explained clearly or a book that I should buy??

Thanks!!

 

[saltydog]

Hi Cristy,
Welcome, this is a wonderful forum. I like this site for lots of great info:
http://www.millersoap.com/

 

[MissMori]

Superfatting and lye discount are the same thing. The superfat is the fat or oil that has not been saponified, because there was not enough sodium hydroxide available to saponify all the oils/fats. Lye discount is another term for it. You discount (reduce) the amount of sodium hydroxide (called lye when in solution) required to saponify all the fat/oil.

If you fully saponify the oils, you have a 0% superfat or lye discount. If your formula is perfect and you weighed all your ingredients perfectly, you would have no fats left over to be saponified and you would have no sodium hydroxide molecules left over.

If you have more sodium hydroxide than is required to saponify all the oils, then your soap is lye heavy. Or you could say you have lye left over.

When you have oils left over after they saponification process is complete, your soap is oil heavy or superfatted.

 

[Cristy]

MissMori, thanks so much for the detailed response...I think I get it now, kind of.

Saltydog....I checked out the Miller Soap website before and loved it but somehow overlooked her Saponification Numbers for Lye chart, so I'm going to look at that a little more closely and hopefully get an even better understanding.

 

[saltydog]

Very well said, MissMori!

Cristy, I understand. Sometimes when there is so much info, you have to go back to things. Or at least I do. Again, and again.. :wink:

 

[MissMori]

As for percentages... experiment and find what works for you. At the bare minimum, if you have a trustworthy scale and have a little experience making soap, go as low as 3%. The soap will likely be harsh. Then experiment at the other end of the spectrum and go for 18%, I'm not talking about an all coconut soap, but something with 3 or 4 oils/fats. Then do a soap at 9% or 10%. Try them out, feel the difference on your skin. You may want to use the same percentages of each oil so that you can make a true side by side comparison. You won't learn anything unless you experiment.

 

[elemente]

soft soap

hi all, like Cristy I am also new to soap making. I have made a few batches and have been experimenting with the discount as is suggested in the responses here. I started with small batches at first (3 lb) and have now moved up to 8 pound batches. The recipe I'm using is 50% Olive 31.25% Coconut and 18.75% Palm, plus aloe as an additive. When I made my fist smaller batches I used a 10% discount and was very happy with the results. I tried an 8 lb batch with a 15% discount and it seems really spongy still after 5 days of drying. I made another 8 lb batch with a 10% discount and I like the results better than the 15%, but it still seems a little soft....The question I really have is how can I make my bars a little harder. I've read up on castor oil it sounds like a good way, but I was wondering if I decreased the amount of olive oil and increased the amount of Palm would that lead to a harder bar? or should I just use a smaller lye discount?

 

[IrishLass]

Hi Cristy-

Another great soap learning site is David Fisher's:

http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapm ... e-Soap.htm

I learned a lot from him when I first started out, as well as Cathy Miller whose site was already mentioned. David Fisher takes you through the process of creating a soap recipe and how to convert to percentages, etc....

And also this FAQ page on SoapCalc is very helpful and explains superfatting/discount, etc...:

http://www.soapcalc.net/info/FAQ.asp

And of course soapmaking forum archives are a treasure trove of soaping wisdom. I think I read the archives of almost every soaping forum I could get my hands on for about a year or so before I gained enough courage to dive in and make my first batch. As for books...... well, to be honest, with the exception of these 2 wonderful books- Dr. Kevin Dunn's book, "Scientific Soapmaking" and Alicia Grosso's "Everything Soapmaking Book"- I actually like reading the soaping forums so much better for gleaning soaping wisdom. I've found many soaping books to be too limited in scope, because afterall, they are based only on one soapmaker's opinion/experience. Also, many times I have found certain books to have outdated or just plain wrong soaping info. But on an active forum, you have the most up-to-date soaping info from the voices of many experienced soapers right at at you fingertips. You'll also frequently bump into threads which answer the same questions you have, and be able to talk to and ask questions of other soapers. The internet is a wonderful place for a soapmaker, even though I admit it's not as cozy as snuggling up on the couch with a cup of tea and a good book! :wink:


IrishLass

 

[IrishLass]

Re: soft soap

hi all, like Cristy I am also new to soap making. I have made a few batches and have been experimenting with the discount as is suggested in the responses here. I started with small batches at first (3 lb) and have now moved up to 8 pound batches.

Hello elemente and welcome! Wow- 8 lbs.! You're really diving in! If all you are doing is experimenting right now and getting your soaper legs under you, you may want to go back to a smaller size batch to save on supplies in case your large batches don't turn out the way you'd like. I like to keep my experimental batches on the small side myself- 1 lb or 2 lbs. That way I won't have wasted too much money if my experiment goes south.

The recipe I'm using is 50% Olive 31.25% Coconut and 18.75% Palm, plus aloe as an additive. When I made my fist smaller batches I used a 10% discount and was very happy with the results. I tried an 8 lb batch with a 15% discount and it seems really spongy still after 5 days of drying. I made another 8 lb batch with a 10% discount and I like the results better than the 15%, but it still seems a little soft..

Speaking only for myself, I don't know that I'd go as high as 15% on the superfat with a formula that contains 50% olive oil (unless it was in a 1 lb 'just to see what happens' experiment). Generally, olive oil will make a good hard soap after a proper cure, but how hard the bar will end up and how long the cure will take to reach that hardness depends on the specifics of everything else in your particular recipe (i.e. water amount, superfat amount, which other oils you are using, etc..). I make a soap with 50% olive oil, too, but I normally don't like to go any higher than a 7% superfat with it because it comes out softer and starts to kill off my bubbly lather (and I likes me bubbles). With a 15% superfat in your olive oil recipe it's not hard for me to see why your soap is still on the soft/spongy side. If it were me, I would give it a long cure of at least 6 to 8 weeks or so and then see how it's coming along.

..The question I really have is how can I make my bars a little harder. I've read up on castor oil it sounds like a good way, but I was wondering if I decreased the amount of olive oil and increased the amount of Palm would that lead to a harder bar? or should I just use a smaller lye discount?

Castor oil will not add hardness to your bar, so I wouldn't go that way. It will add a lovely 'oomph' to your lather, though.

Decreasing the olive and increasing the palm is one way to add hardness. So is lowering the superfat.

Other ways- adding stearic acid or sodium lactate helps, as well as adding some of the harder fats/butters like cocoa butter or tallow in place of some of the olive. Using less water helps, too.

Something to keep in mind..... when you start substituting the olive oil out for the harder fats, just keep in mind that your cleansing quotient will increase, causing your soap to feel more drying to the skin. Formulating is a delicate balacing act, that's for sure!


IrishLass

 

[Cristy]

Irishlass...thanks for the suggesion, I will definately be checking out David Fishers site!

I made my second batch last night....cinnamon oatmeal, milk and honey. I found the recipe online but played with the oils a bit and used a lye calculator to make sure that everything lined up. This morning the soap looked great, it was so pretty that basically I wanted to eat it!

I've also contacted my local butcher who told me that he would give me his fat if I come in. I'm looking forward to rendering my own tallow and using it to make soap. I wonder if people are put off by soap that contains tallow??

Thanks for the responses everyone, I really appreciate it!

 

[IrishLass]

Irishlass...thanks for the suggesion, I will definately be checking out David Fishers site!

I made my second batch last night....cinnamon oatmeal, milk and honey. I found the recipe online but played with the oils a bit and used a lye calculator to make sure that everything lined up. This morning the soap looked great, it was so pretty that basically I wanted to eat it!

I've also contacted my local butcher who told me that he would give me his fat if I come in. I'm looking forward to rendering my own tallow and using it to make soap. I wonder if people are put off by soap that contains tallow??

Thanks for the responses everyone, I really appreciate it!

Cool beans!

I personally love tallow in soap (and lard, too!) I've never had a complaint or even a mention from any of my 'customers' (family and friends and friends of friends) about them being used in my soap, and I advertise them proudly right on the front of my soap label. I know there are some who object to tallow or lard for personal reasons, but a lot depends on your location/customer base.

IrishLass

 

[elemente]

Thanks Irishlass, it's good to be welcomed ...awesome info especially advising on a longer cure, I was gonna do that and see how it turned out, but it's nice to know that my thinking was in the proper direction. Yeah I kinda went big pretty early...but sometimes that's the only way I'll learn...hardheaded ya know, I thought I knew something or another about chemistry...haha. I actually made another batch that was a bit smaller (4lbs) I used a 10% discount and it seems to be harder already, so I think I'll try that one again but use your suggested 7%. I would like to add some of the butters that you suggested as well, that sounds delicious. Also I was wondering about adding botanical ingredients, such as ground up herbs and flowers. I have read a bit that says it's fine, but I am wondering do the botanical ingredients hold up through the process of soponification(sp?) and also are they more likely to go rancid or cause DOS in your soap? Well I guess that's question 2 only 3 million more to go...
Thanx again, Elemente

 

[Lynnz]

I personally love tallow in soap (and lard, too!) I've never had a complaint or even a mention from any of my 'customers' (family and friends and friends of friends) about them being used in my soap, and I advertise them proudly right on the front of my soap label. I know there are some who object to tallow or lard for personal reasons, but a lot depends on your location/customer base.

IrishLass

Not to hijack the thread but I am so itching to try lard in my soaps as in all this time that I have been soaping I have never experimented with them and now keen to give it a go Now on with the superfatting!!!!!

 

[Soapy Gurl]

Superfatting and lye discount has been explained really well, I have nothing I can add! The default on soapcalc is 5% but I like to go for 6%. The more extra fat you have in your soap the quicker it can go bad. I am sure their are people on here that can give you a good idea of how long your shelf life will be. I know my bars stay good well over a year at 6%. As for the oils in your soap, it is all personal choice. I make vegan soap and find that the amount of soap for sale on Etsy (I live on there, really!) is more vegan and advertised that way. It seems to be a big selling feature. There is the observation of the day from a serious shop-a-holic, lol.

 

[IrishLass]

Also I was wondering about adding botanical ingredients, such as ground up herbs and flowers. I have read a bit that says it's fine, but I am wondering do the botanical ingredients hold up through the process of soponification(sp?) and also are they more likely to go rancid or cause DOS in your soap? Well I guess that's question 2 only 3 million more to go...
Thanx again, Elemente

I've never added botanicals myself because I've heard from others that they eventually turn brown and yucky looking, but maybe someone who has more experience with adding them will chime in.

IrishLass

 

[Lynnz]

the only one I have had any success with is Calendula oh and for the tops of soaps Cornflower petals have not gone brown but other than that they have turned brown

 

[Bama]

I have been using a 5% superfat so far. All my bars have been nice and hard. I have to say the batch of Lard soap I made 4 months ago is hard as can be and lasts a long time. I am going to make more lard soap. It is very creamy. I just made my first batch with GV brand shortening that is beef tallow/palm. Will see how I like that. I used Apple jack peel FO and it smells very yummy.