Phenol in my lye water

[Spice]

I used a small container that I thought was clean to scoop my lye. When I went to wash that container the water turned light pink and I knew that it was phenol. It was the same container that I had test some soap a couple of days ago. The phenol was dried to the container.
Do I need to dump the lye water and start with a new batch? Even though the phenol was dried on I dont know if it contaminated my lye. Also I used a wooden spoon to mix the lye and water, Iam thinking that maybe I need to get something else because I notice a little bit of yellowing in the water and I know its from the spoon.

 

[new12soap]

Why are you using phenol at all? There is absolutely no need and it does not accomplish anything.

Since you didn't notice anything in the lye water, I am not sure whether you need to dump it or not. Perhaps someone more familiar with its toxicity can answer that.

Please do not use wooden utensils, they will splinter and leave tiny nasty shards in your solution. Sturdy, chem and heat resistant plastic, silicone, or stainless steel is best.

 

[Spice]

Sometimes I use phenol to test for lye in my soap. I dont use it alot (phenol), only when I am not sure of a soap. I had made a loft of soap using indigo blue and it had air bubbles, I need to see it all of just some of the soap was lye heavy. I dont do zap tests, I enjoy the tip of my tongue. I will be getting new stainless steel utensils though.

 

[boyago]

Why are you using phenol at all? There is absolutely no need and it does not accomplish anything.

Since you didn't notice anything in the lye water, I am not sure whether you need to dump it or not. Perhaps someone more familiar with its toxicity can answer that.

Please do not use wooden utensils, they will splinter and leave tiny nasty shards in your solution. Sturdy, chem and heat resistant plastic, silicone, or stainless steel is best.

Phenol is used as a PH indicator that is more pleasant than seeing how badly you can burn your tongue by sticking onto a caustic material.

 

[new12soap]

Phenol is an alkalinity indicator, and all soap is alkaline. It turns bright pink but it isn't easy to tell pH from how pink it is. And even if it did, it does not tell you whether your soap is lye heavy or not. A soap with a pH of 12.4 might be perfectly safe, and a soap with a pH of 10 might be lye heavy.

Not that I advocate burning your tongue, but I don't think phenol is a useful tool for making bar soap. I don't think any home crafter pH test is a useful tool for making bar soap.

JM2C

 

[DeeAnna]

Are y'all talking about phenolpthalein (phenol-p for short) or are you talking about REAL phenol? Cuz if you're talking about phenol-p, then please, please say so ... because inexperienced newbies are reading this and taking notes about what to do.

REAL phenol is an incredibly lethal chemical that can sometimes be found on the open market. Having followed soaping forums for some time and read about some of the off-the-wall things that people do, I could see an uneducated person might purchase some REAL phenol to use with soaping based on what is being said here.

I used to work in a chemical plant where a worker died from being splashed with REAL phenol and panicked -- it was gruesome -- so I shudder when soapers shorthand the pH indicator called phenolpthalein to just "phenol". Please be more careful???

edit: I also agree with New12Soap's point -- well said.

 

[new12soap]

Apologies, the OP used the shorter version, I am hoping they meant phenolpthalein! But yes, accuracy is important.

 

[boyago]

I am by no means a chemist and I've only used phenol 1% solution if there are others I'm not familiar with I don't know. But as I understand it the phenol reacts faster and brighter the higher the PH this is in no way accurate enough to give a number on the ph scale but will let you know when your soap is really "hot". If I drop it in batter it turns bright magenta immediately, if on a long that's a day old pink, as the soap (which is still basic) cures it gets lighter and far less reactive to when my soap is cured it doesn't seem to do anything at all.
From what I've read anything around 10 should be used only for laundry and over that shouldn't be used. I don't think a soap with a ph of 12.4 would be safe as our skin is about 7 and that seems like a big jump up the scale. Thus more reactive. I think the Lye itself is around 13... That's how I've come to understand it anyway.

**yes Phenolphthalein

 

[new12soap]

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49099&highlight=measuring

see the table of pH and irritation index in DeeAnna's post, post #9.

 

[DeeAnna]

As far as making soap with lye water that's contaminated with phenolphthalein ... it probably won't hurt anything, really, but even so I would discard the lye solution and start fresh. In the old days, phenol-p was used as a strong emetic -- a drug to cure constipation. It can be toxic when ingested, especially for children and elderly or sick people. I just wouldn't care for that kind of stuff in my soap, even if it was soap for just my own personal use.

How to safely discard a small quantity of lye solution? Turn the cold water faucet on full blast. Slowly pour the lye solution in a thin stream into the drain. Let the cold water run for about 5 minutes after all the lye has been run down the drain to flush the lye solution into the sewer mains or the septic system. Do NOT use hot water ... use cold water only. The lye solution will heat up when it mixes with the fresh water, so cold water is safest.

 

[boyago]

I'm sure I'm going to butcher this from those well versed in chemistry so you if you are sensitive grit your teeth.
I'm curious then is the PhenoP or our tongues reacting to both the soap and the free alkali? Are the alkali gobblins bussy with their fatty acid ghouls and that's what makes the "neutral soap", or is the phenol-p gonna go pink just because the soap itself is basic?

 

[KatieShephard]

How to safely discard a small quantity of lye solution? Turn the cold water faucet on full blast. Slowly pour the lye solution in a thin stream into the drain. Let the cold water run for about 5 minutes after all the lye has been run down the drain to flush the lye solution into the sewer mains or the septic system. Do NOT use hot water ... use cold water only. The lye solution will heat up when it mixes with the fresh water, so cold water is safest.

^^^this would be a great sticky in the beginners section! Thank you for the info DeeAnna.

 

[JustBeachy]

How to safely discard a small quantity of lye solution? Turn the cold water faucet on full blast. Slowly pour the lye solution in a thin stream into the drain. Let the cold water run for about 5 minutes after all the lye has been run down the drain to flush the lye solution into the sewer mains or the septic system. Do NOT use hot water ... use cold water only. The lye solution will heat up when it mixes with the fresh water, so cold water is safest.

As someone who owns a home maintenance company I would agree with this disposal method, with a couple of caveats. If you are on a septic system, one lye dump with adequate water, shouldn't affect the function of your system. Still when any of our workers use any of the acidic cleaners, (lye, sulfuric, etc) on a house with a septic, we leave a complimentary box of Ridex with instructions to use it after 24 hours of our visit. So if you have to dump the lye, it's never a bad idea to replenish the bacteria in your system.

Just make sure your drains are running smoothly before dumping it and if it starts to back up, turn off the water and let it sit for 30 mins. Most of the time it will clear the line. Then slowly add water to ensure it's cleared the line. After that you can and should flush it thoroughly. If it doesn't clear, do not try to clear the clog with a plunger or a snake, unless you really know what you're doing. There's been more than one occasion where one of the guys went out on a service call for a clogged drain and the customer failed to mention they poured lye down the drain. Not much fun for the unsuspecting guy running a snake in and out of the drain. :Kitten Love:

 

[Spice]

Are y'all talking about phenolpthalein (phenol-p for short) or are you talking about REAL phenol? Cuz if you're talking about phenol-p, then please, please say so ... because inexperienced newbies are reading this and taking notes about what to do.

REAL phenol is an incredibly lethal chemical that can sometimes be found on the open market. Having followed soaping forums for some time and read about some of the off-the-wall things that people do, I could see an uneducated person might purchase some REAL phenol to use with soaping based on what is being said here.

I used to work in a chemical plant where a worker died from being splashed with REAL phenol and panicked -- it was gruesome -- so I shudder when soapers shorthand the pH indicator called phenolpthalein to just "phenol". Please be more careful???

edit: I also agree with New12Soap's point -- well said.

I was talking about phenolpthalein. I hardly believe that REAL phenol would be selling on Amazon, hey who knows though. There are 7 ways to get to Sunday and none of them are truly accurate; there are to many variables in each. Im not a true chemist, I make soap. I try to get as much info as I can and be will versed. I know one thing and that is if my soap is lye heavy, it will show right away. the phenolpthalein is a tool I use to get an idea of what I must do next.Im usually a very clean person, that duty container got pass me only because I left it out of its place. I learned a lot today and all the posts have been great, that is why I trust this forum. the variety is awesome.:smile:

 

[Susie]

I value my, and my family's, skin as much as I value the tip of my tongue. I would never, ever risk losing either. Zap test gives a sensation, not a chemical burn. There is a difference.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

My views on pH testing are no secret, but I want to liken it to testing food - we don't often burn our mouths when eating because we know what to look for regarding overly hot food. If water is bubbling in a pot, we don't spoon it straight in to our mouths and so on.

I never put an unknown soap on my tongue - I wet my fingers and rub the soap, no tingle I put a finger to my tongue, no tingle I put the soap to my tongue.

If you could cause yourself lasting damage testing soap this way, then I think you can't be trusted to cook or even make a hot drink.

 

[JustBeachy]

My views on pH testing are no secret, but I want to liken it to testing food - we don't often burn our mouths when eating because we know what to look for regarding overly hot food. If water is bubbling in a pot, we don't spoon it straight in to our mouths and so on.

I never put an unknown soap on my tongue - I wet my fingers and rub the soap, no tingle I put a finger to my tongue, no tingle I put the soap to my tongue.

If you could cause yourself lasting damage testing soap this way, then I think you can't be trusted to cook or even make a hot drink.

Now there is a common sense argument for the zap test, that's well.... hard to argue with.

 

[Spice]

When I made my first batch, last year, I was scared to death about those zap tests. I was so trained by my mentor about lye and safety first, I actually was trembling at the thought. Since I was new, I didnt known what I was doing, and since it was my first batch, I thought the worse. Common sense comes after some time and a few batches, I can do a zap test now, no problem, but why, I hate the taste, and what I get from that zap I get from the phenol 1% solution test anyway. It amazes me how soap has so many different variable, not only that, it works it self out! I wonder if creating soap is creating a mind of its own?

 

[user 12568]

By carefully following a recipe that's been verified in SoapCalc, with a moderate lye discount (~5 to 8%), there should be very little chance of the soap being lye heavy to begin with.

I cut and "zap test" my soaps after 24hrs, and I've never once felt a tingle, zap, or burn. I also find phenol-p to be pointless.

I burn my mouth more often by drinking hot coffee or eating hot pizza -- the zap test is the least of my worries. :crazy: