Natural preservatives with specific soap recipes?(questions)

[LisaNY]

Lye isn't going to be in the soap after the reaction.


Yeah i read it, because some guy made soap with high ammount of lye in it, this is mean that we are all going to do the same?. I already told you that i SF my soaps.

Just because you superfat, it does not mean you cannot have lye still present in your finished soap. Many things can happen during the soaping process that will leave lye, or pockets of lye in your soap.

I'll start a list...

Inaccurate scale
Inadequate mixing/stirring

Oh, and I regularly sf at 10% and I got lye pockets in two batches of soap last winter. I finally traced it to the milk powders I used in both batches. It was not adequately incorporated, so some of the lye attached to the fats in the powders and created tiny little pockets of lye.

Superfatting can help, but it is not a guarantee against lye being present in finished soap. Your thinking that it prevents it shows that you really need to do more research.

Lots of things can go wrong with soaping. It would be really wise to take the advice you've been given here, and get lots more soaping experience before selling it to anyone.

The Miller's Soap page has lots of information for new soapers.

Good luck, and happy soaping!

 

[Guest]

I think you really need to do some research on the difference between antioxidants and preservatives, and then read this thread again and I think it will make sense.

There is no such thing is a natural broad spectrum and effective preservative. You don't need a preservative in your soap, the pH is too high for pretty much anything to live there. You said that your book said adding GSE extends shelf life. That is true. Antioxidants extend shelf life by preventing rancidity. If you are using soaps that are prone to DOS, adding GSE directly to your soaps could have some benefit. If you are using 100% OO, you probably don't need this.

Aside from all of that- I see you are in Greece. That means you need to follow EU regulations regarding cosmetics (soap is considered a cosmetic). This is a link to Cosmetics Directive 76/768/EEC: http://www.leffingwell.com/cosmetics/vol_1en.pdf. I'm currently trying to begin selling in Italy, and I can tell you it is a pain in the butt. You will need a certified cosmetics laboratory, a technical director if you don't have a degree in something like chemistry or pharmacy, you have to have all of your recipes reviewed by the cosmetics board of your country, and all of your recipes sent off to be analyzed. Only certain things can be used as preservatives and colorants. Anything you use as a natural colorant must have some other purpose because you can't officially use it as a color unless it is on the 'list' which only includes artificial colors. Essential oils can only be used in certain percentages, and differs for each one. Many MANY things are forbidden to use as ingredients. Packaging and labeling is also strictly controlled. You'll need to figure out how to calculate your shelf life. I imagine tax laws are about as confusing in Greece as they are in Italy, so you'll probably also need to hire an accountant.

Basically, if you want to start selling, you better want to do it as a full time career, because otherwise your business expenses will sink you in a minute. It's not easy to sell soaps in Europe, unfortunately.


Maybe you already knew all of that. I didn't when I first started thinking about selling, about 6 months into soap making. Now A LOT time has passed since then, and it'll be another 3 months or so before I can start the paperwork. I've found a lab, technical director, accountant, suppliers, shops that want to carry my products, and have tweaked my recipes. It's been frustrating but it has given me time to become a much better soap maker.

The people on this forum who give advice might tell you something you don't want to hear sometimes, but they generally really know what they are talking about. And I have a bunch of books that are 'well respected' yet give inaccurate information. Just because it is written down in one place doesn't make it true. If you find it in 10 books, you can start to believe it .

Hope this is helpful. I can sympathize with someone in the EU who wants to get into selling soap, and I wish someone would have told me all of this at the beginning. Still would have done it, but I would have perhaps been more efficient!

Edited to add: I agree strongly with what is written above. Soap is not 'natural'. It is created by a chemical reaction (saponification) between oils and lye (a chemical! made in a lab!). It is perhaps a step closer to natural than many commercial products, but it is the result of a chemical reaction. If you aren't careful with how you do it, people can get burned or have severe reactions. It's not something to take lightly, and if you don't understand this yet, you really need to soap longer and do some research. After reading many horror stories about because getting chemical burns due to poorly made soap, I always proceed with caution and am meticulous about my process, because I don't ever want to be the cause of someone getting hurt.

Thank you for your information, that was really helpfull.
I was actually thinking to sell in a very lower level, and not in massive market. For example i know many stores and people on my city that have very interest in homemade organic soaps.
About the info about perservatives in book, i haven't posted anything about books. Another guy wrote something about a book in the first page.
I always try my soap, i know what lye is...

I already told you that i SF my soaps.
I mean that it burned a hole through a plastic table cover and the finishing of the wood (lacquer or whatever it was). Not the wood iteself.

the lye you mean. I confussed because you said something for cinnamon and clove too.

Oh, and I regularly sf at 10% and I got lye pockets in two batches of soap last winter. I finally traced it to the milk powders I used in both batches. It was not adequately incorporated, so some of the lye attached to the fats in the powders and created tiny little pockets of lye.
Superfatting can help, but it is not a guarantee against lye being present in finished soap. Your thinking that it prevents it shows that you really need to do more research.

if someone is borring to stirring very well the mixture, of course the SF it's not a gurantee.

 

[LisaNY]

Thank you for your information, that was really helpfull.
I was actually thinking to sell in a very lower level, and not in massive market. For example i know many stores and people on my city that have very interest in homemade organic soaps.

I know that i'm inexpirienced and i have to learn more on to the subject,...

All I can say is, "Oh, my!"

 

[Guest]

Thank you for your information, that was really helpfull.
I was actually thinking to sell in a very lower level, and not in massive market. For example i know many stores and people on my city that have very interest in homemade organic soaps.

I know that i'm inexpirienced and i have to learn more on to the subject,...

All I can say is, "Oh, my!"

Dont say it. You better save those words for your bedroom.

 

[fiddletree]

Thank you for your information, that was really helpfull.
I was actually thinking to sell in a very lower level, and not in massive market. For example i know many stores and people on my city that have very interest in homemade organic soaps.
About the info about perservatives in book, i haven't posted anything about books. Another guy wrote something about a book in the first page.
I always try my soap, i know what lye is...

Sorry, I confused you with the other guy who posted about what his books says.

But with regards to selling to local shops, even if you want to sell on a very small scale you have to follow all the regulations. So do stores. They have to have an official sales receipt and be able to trace their products, and can be inspected for such things. Which means that you need to be 'officially' making soaps, which means you must follow all of the regulations. Even if the stores offer to buy your soap without you being official, both the store and you could get into very big trouble (jail and giant fines) if there is an inspection of the store and they find out you are selling without having the authorization. Making for family and friends is ok, but selling to the public is something else. It is your decision if you want to risk it without being authorized, but at least you are warned.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as small scale soap making in the EU. The regulations are the same for people who want to make a little, and people with giant corporations. The EU is the strictest in the entire world for regulating cosmetics, and since we live in the EU, we have to deal with that. You have three choices: don't sell, sell illegally (I don't recommend it. bad idea.), or follow the strict regulations.

To have a lab that is certified, I'm assuming the regulations are the same in Greece as in Italy. Here it has to be all easily washable surfaces, including wall and floor (like tile), must have ventilation, access to a bathroom, and access to a sink. The local health department certifies it. It's possible to build one in your home if you have space. If you have a chemist or pharmacist friend ask if they can be your technical director (that's what I did). There are places in the EU (mostly in the UK) where you can send your products to be tested. So it really isn't impossible, it's just a lot to do.

You do have another option, if what is most important to you is having soap made with your oils (I am so jealous! I wish I could produce my oils. But I live too high in the mountains...). You could pay someone who IS certified and authorized to make soap for selling in the EU to make soap using your recipe, molds, and oils. That is what a lot of farms where I live do, they get certified soap makers to make them soap using their herbs, essential oils, milk, honey, etc. That will be some of my (future) business because there is a lot of demand for it. Soap that you can sell can be made by someone else with your oil and recipes, so you are OK legally, although you will have less of a profit. And you can continue to make soap at home for your own use.

 

[fiddletree]

Fragola wrote:
I mean that it burned a hole through a plastic table cover and the finishing of the wood (lacquer or whatever it was). Not the wood iteself.


the lye you mean. I confussed because you said something for cinnamon and clove too.

Clove essential oil is pretty potent, and I've heard that in it's concentrated form it can burn through things. I think it has a 0.2% use rate restriction.

 

[Guest]

Sorry, I confused you with the other guy who posted about what his books says.

But with regards to selling to local shops, even if you want to sell on a very small scale you have to follow all the regulations. So do stores. They have to have an official sales receipt and be able to trace their products, and can be inspected for such things. Which means that you need to be 'officially' making soaps, which means you must follow all of the regulations. Even if the stores offer to buy your soap without you being official, both the store and you could get into very big trouble (jail and giant fines) if there is an inspection of the store and they find out you are selling without having the authorization. Making for family and friends is ok, but selling to the public is something else. It is your decision if you want to risk it without being authorized, but at least you are warned.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as small scale soap making in the EU. The regulations are the same for people who want to make a little, and people with giant corporations. The EU is the strictest in the entire world for regulating cosmetics, and since we live in the EU, we have to deal with that. You have three choices: don't sell, sell illegally (I don't recommend it. bad idea.), or follow the strict regulations.

To have a lab that is certified, I'm assuming the regulations are the same in Greece as in Italy. Here it has to be all easily washable surfaces, including wall and floor (like tile), must have ventilation, access to a bathroom, and access to a sink. The local health department certifies it. It's possible to build one in your home if you have space. If you have a chemist or pharmacist friend ask if they can be your technical director (that's what I did). There are places in the EU (mostly in the UK) where you can send your products to be tested. So it really isn't impossible, it's just a lot to do.

You do have another option, if what is most important to you is having soap made with your oils (I am so jealous! I wish I could produce my oils. But I live too high in the mountains...). You could pay someone who IS certified and authorized to make soap for selling in the EU to make soap using your recipe, molds, and oils. That is what a lot of farms where I live do, they get certified soap makers to make them soap using their herbs, essential oils, milk, honey, etc. That will be some of my (future) business because there is a lot of demand for it. Soap that you can sell can be made by someone else with your oil and recipes, so you are OK legally, although you will have less of a profit. And you can continue to make soap at home for your own use.

Thank you again for your information!!!

Clove essential oil is pretty potent, and I've heard that in it's concentrated form it can burn through things. I think it has a 0.2% use rate restriction.

I dont have clove / cinnamon essential oils. I meant those kind of powder cinnamon and powder clove that we are using in foods to gave them taste.

 

[G. Man]

FYI, 100% clove essential oil will not burn through anything. Whenever I have a toothache I put it directly on my finger then place it directly on my tooth.

 

[Lisars]

Although I value a good and informative read, I think I would prefer to learn from people who have, combined, made thousands of batches of soap.

I love this forum!

 

[judymoody]

Thank you for your information, that was really helpfull.
I was actually thinking to sell in a very lower level, and not in massive market. For example i know many stores and people on my city that have very interest in homemade organic soaps.

I know that i'm inexpirienced and i have to learn more on to the subject,...

All I can say is, "Oh, my!"

Dont say it. You better save those words for your bedroom.

That was inappropriate. There are guidelines about courtesy and respect on this forum. You can take or leave the advice given here, that's up to you. But no need to be rude to LisaNY.

Edited to remove a word.

 

[judymoody]

FYI, 100% clove essential oil will not burn through anything. Whenever I have a toothache I put it directly on my finger then place it directly on my tooth.

Actually I once spilled a little clove EO on a wooden table and it damaged the finish on the wood.

 

[LauraHoosier]

OP I have to say after reading all this that I will tell you what I've experienced. I've made soap for almost 6 months now I think. I use T-50 Vit E in my soaps to help extent shelf life but it will not stop rancidity or DOS.

Just last night I threw out around 200 soaps that were less then 3 months old. Oh my gosh if I'd have sold them? No one would have bought from me again. I have soap that was made in July that looks great and still smell wonderful too. You just never know which batch fails and sometimes they fail for no apparent reason.

All my experience so far, and fellow soapers here that I've talked to, tells me a couple things:

1) Make smaller batches to test What a waste of supplies.
2) Don't count on it never happening to you.
and
3) Never sell if you don't know that batch will last a year because you haven't put it to the test first.

And G.Man you'll find that the forum moderators and admins know way more then you realize given their combined number of years and batches worth of experience between them. I'd ask politely that you please stop passing on information that has already been proven scientifically to be false in the case of soap. We have a post on this forum with the link to the actual study and I'll link directly to the study here for you in case you haven't found it yet. http://cavemanchemistry.com/HsmgDos2006.pdf It just confuses new soapers like the OP.

 

[Guest]

Thank you for your information, that was really helpfull.
I was actually thinking to sell in a very lower level, and not in massive market. For example i know many stores and people on my city that have very interest in homemade organic soaps.

I know that i'm inexpirienced and i have to learn more on to the subject,...

All I can say is, "Oh, my!"

Dont say it. You better save those words for your bedroom.

That was inappropriate. There are guidelines about courtesy and respect on this forum. You can take or leave the advice given here, that's up to you. But no need to be rude to LisaNY.

Edited to remove a word.

Yeah, and the irony is a part of this forum (?) but i don't like irony. I asked some qestions and you made so much big deal that i said that i'm thinking of selling my soaps.
Im not just a guy that red the net about how easy is to make soap. I actually made many recipes those 2 and a half months that i'm making soap, and i tried them all in my skin.
The fact that i don't know some things yet, is because that YOU guys haven't decide yet what is correct and what it is not.
Only admins or moderators can kick me out from forum, not you.
I took the advice you gave me, and i'll give you too an advice. If you love LisaNY so much you should join her bedroom to scream "oh my!" together.

 

[dieSpinne]

FYI, 100% clove essential oil will not burn through anything. Whenever I have a toothache I put it directly on my finger then place it directly on my tooth.

100% Clove oil is also a very effective solvent.
It will "burn" through plastics, lacquers and other finishes... if they are oil based finishes like linseed or tung, when it hits the wood it will travel along the grain and lift the finish for quite a ways from the site of initial exposure.

Also, if you want to see just how "safe" 100% clove oil is, take a little on your finger and put it on the webbing and crevice between your fingers. I strongly do NOT recommend putting it anywhere more sensitive than that.

 

[carebear]

Yeah, and the irony is a part of this forum (?) but i don't like irony. I asked some qestions and you made so much big deal that i said that i'm thinking of selling my soaps.
Im not just a guy that red the net about how easy is to make soap. I actually made many recipes those 2 and a half months that i'm making soap, and i tried them all in my skin.
The fact that i don't know some things yet, is because that YOU guys haven't decide yet what is correct and what it is not.
Only admins or moderators can kick me out from forum, not you.
I took the advice you gave me, and i'll give you too an advice. If you love LisaNY so much you should join her bedroom to scream "oh my!" together.

1- you don't have to like the forum, but you do need to behave properly if you wish to participate
2- general members do help "police" the forum. you needn't be a mod to remind people to behave.
3- the fact that you don't know some things is because you haven't researched enough or made enough soap. forums are only one place to learn.
4- your sexual innuendos just lost you your membership. bye bye.

The SMF has zero tolerance for trolling. If we determine you are attempting to provoke or disrupt this forum or if your posts have an inflammatory feel to them your account will be deleted an your IP will be banned.

http://soapmakingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10344