"natural" or not?

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Vonna

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What does everyone think about the label "Natural" on their soaps? I only use EO's for scenting but I use cosmetic grade powdered oxides to colour with so does that mean the soap is no longer natural? I guess it would unless I was using a plant derived or other natural colourant (which I am not a fan of) I haven't found much out there thats "natural" that gives great colour. What does everyone think? I know it can be a touchy word to use in a label... Thanks!! :)
 
soap also uses lye .. which isn't natural either, I think?
 
I agree with tasha, the lye makes "Natural Soap" an oxymoron.
That said, you could go with "Handmade with Natural oils" or something similar...
 
Labeling "Natural"

Everyone (at least those of us who've actually made soap) knows that you can't make soap without lye. When it comes down to categorizing soap and/or any other personal care products as "Natural or Organic" most would agree about what other natural or organic ingredients goes into making the soap or other personal care product during their manufacturing process, not man-made synthetics. In other words, most health conscious consumers don't want to read nor see any substances that are linked to causing cancer, hormonal disruption or are just overall down right bad to be putting on our skin, on any products' ingredient label.
 
I also like the "Handmade With Natural Oils." Technically, water from the tap or distilled is neither natural (it's been processed) nor organic (it contains no carbon). Neither is the lye, of course, but no lye = no soap.

Personally, I tend to scan labels. If there's a large number of substances high on the list that I a) cannot pronounce and b) don't know what they do, forgeddaboudit.

Oxides and ultramarines aren't natural these days, they're cooked in a lab (which is a good thing, it keeps the all-natural arsenic and lead out of the colorant). However, if I see either on a label I don't blink.
 
Re: Labeling "Natural"

Cattleyabubbles said:
Everyone (at least those of us who've actually made soap) knows that you can't make soap without lye. When it comes down to categorizing soap and/or any other personal care products as "Natural or Organic" most would agree about what other natural or organic ingredients goes into making the soap or other personal care product during their manufacturing process, not man-made synthetics. In other words, most health conscious consumers don't want to read nor see any substances that are linked to causing cancer, hormonal disruption or are just overall down right bad to be putting on our skin, on any products' ingredient label.
Really? I disagree entirely. So I guess I'm not "most".

<rant on>

We have had multiple discussions on the term "natural". My take on it is that soap is manufactured so it clearly isn't natural. OK fine, you don't use synthetic ingredients except the lye, of course. Well the "except" part means you are not using only "natural" ingredients. EVERYTHING is made from something in nature. "Derived from" is another nonsense term. It's another way of saying "synthesized from". Lavender disrupts hormones, as does soy - according to some. Cancer causing? Don't get me started. Bad for your skin? SOAP is bad for your skin from one perspective. EOs can certainly cause cancer, irritation, all sorts of problems including hormone disruption as in the case of lavender and others.

Your oils are extracted, most likely, using solvents (even if you don't know it) residues of which can remain in your oils - and the waste material must be discarded. They are shipped here on boats and then trucks using fuel and polluting our atmosphere or refined here using all the same.

I can go on and on.

There is no natural. There is nothing which does not negatively impact our environment. Driving to the grocery store does. Walk and you are expelling CO2 which ain't so great either.

Oh and FAR more organic ingredients are sold than are produced. So don't bet the farm on that "organic" label.

So you are saying that "natural" and "organic" are euphemisms for "healthy"? don't buy into that either. Plenty of "natural" things are unhealthy and even dangerous. Plenty of EOs in fact.

And may synthetics are skin loving. Of course, pretty much everything is actually synthetic or or modified or refined to the point of being so far removed it's origin it may as well be.

And many things you think of as "natural" aren't. Citric acid - RARELY extracted from citrus plants. Very expensive route. Much cheaper to have mold produce it (fed on corn syrup).
...

<rant off>
 
Well I'm leaving "natural" out all together. I don't sell my soaps but I do give out to family and friends and it's nice to have a label on them I think. Thanks all for your opinions!! :)
 
Re: Labeling "Natural"

carebear said:
<rant on>
...

Now tell us how you really feel. Don't hold back. :)

Agreed, though. Most things that nature produces can be produced more cheaply, easily, and with greater purity in the lab or factory. As far as I'm concerned, this is a good thing. My pretty blue ultramarine doesn't have free arsenic in it. Not that it would be an issue for a wash-off product, nor is it a great deal, but still.

I guess you could use a KOH process plus salt by distilling your own potassium lye using rainwater and ash. That would be natural, but time-consuming, filled with impurities, and of questionable strength. Then sun-evaporate seawater to get the salt to harden the bar.

Have fun with that, I'll order my lye online. :)
 
Re: Labeling "Natural"

MorpheusPA said:
carebear said:
<rant on>
...

Now tell us how you really feel. Don't hold back. :)

Agreed, though. Most things that nature produces can be produced more cheaply, easily, and with greater purity in the lab or factory. As far as I'm concerned, this is a good thing. My pretty blue ultramarine doesn't have free arsenic in it. Not that it would be an issue for a wash-off product, nor is it a great deal, but still.

I guess you could use a KOH process plus salt by distilling your own potassium lye using rainwater and ash. That would be natural, but time-consuming, filled with impurities, and of questionable strength. Then sun-evaporate seawater to get the salt to harden the bar.

Have fun with that, I'll order my lye online. :)
:lol:
 
As a friend of mine says: not all that is natural is good for you, arsenic is natural!

I prefer to minimize the amount of chemicals as much as possible, but I agree, natural in this day and age is pretty much impossible unless you make everything yourself from scratch.
 
Zenobiah said:
As a friend of mine says: not all that is natural is good for you, arsenic is natural!

Agreed! Also, "Organic" is (in the US, at least) a regulated word. If you want to put it on a label, be fully prepared to back it up with all of your suppliers organic certifications. That's why I would never call it "Organic Soap," (well, that and the fact that I agree with carebear) though I might list "Organic Olive Oil" in my ingredients if I felt it was worth the hassle...
 
Organic and Natural: Caveat Emptor
By: David C. Steinberg, Steinberg & Associates
Posted: January 25 skininc.com (The original article ran in the April 2009 issue of .Cosmetics & Toiletries magazine)

Figure 1. USDA Organic Seal http://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/a ... &width=600

Figure 2. Natural Products Association Seal http://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/a ... &width=600

Figure 3. OASIS Organic Seal http://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/a ... &width=600

COSMOS Chemical Reactions
Every once in a while, readers ask how topics are selected for this column. This time, the idea came from an e-mail inquiring what COSMOS standards are. Previous columns have discussed Canadian Natural Health Products regulations but have steered clear of the natural and organic debate, although this author previously published an article1 that debates animal versus vegetable ingredients, in which he explains that a chemical is a chemical regardless of its origin; a molecule of glycerin is just that, whether from natural sources like animal or vegetable fat, or from petroleum or biodiesel sources.

COSMOS is an independent effort in the European Union (EU) aimed to outline organic and natural standards, with draft guidelines published in November 2008. But how is it different than other standards? This calls for a review of the various natural and organic standards for the personal care industry and how they have evolved.

What is Natural?
According to the author, when he first began to learn during the Dark Ages, the elements of earth, air, fire and water were understood to be natural; thus everything made from them was considered natural. Later, industry expert Ken Klein stated that anything made from the first 92 elements of the periodic table are natural, and that no man-made elements should be used in products claiming to be natural; however, this philosophy did not seem a sufficient answer for what marketers where claiming.

An Internet investigation retrieved several meanings for the term natural, among which were: being present in or produced by nature; i.e., a natural pearl; being inherent or not acquired; not being produced or changed artificially; and not being altered, treated or disguised.

The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not define natural in the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act or any other FDA regulation; the closest definition2 for natural personal care products was established in Canada as a regulated category called Natural Health Products. This regulation, which went into effect on Jan. 1, 2004, defines natural health products (NHPs) as: vitamins and minerals, herbal remedies, homeopathic medicines, traditional medicine such as traditional Chinese medicine, probiotics, and other products like amino acids and essential fatty acids.

While these materials are found in nature, Canada took it a step further to describe acceptable substances as being synthetic duplicates of those materials listed above. Synthetic duplicates are substances that share identical chemical structures and pharmacological properties with their natural counterparts; an example of such is vitamin E and dl alpha-tocopherol.

A semi-synthetic substance may also be acceptable as an NHP, provided that it shares identical chemical structures and pharmacological properties with its natural counterpart. Semi-synthetic substances are produced by processes that chemically change a related starting material that has been extracted or isolated from a plant or a plant material, an alga, a fungus or a non-human animal material. An example of such is ginsenosides, which are produced from the starting compound betulafolienetriol.

In the end, whatever marketing deems natural is natural; the critical inference is that consumers believe products marketed as natural are safer than products that are not marketed as natural. This has given rise to an increase in use of the word organic within the cosmetic industry.


Organic
Recalling studies from his youth, the author notes that the term organic originally referred to the chemistry of the carbon atom. Then in 1973, an organization called the California Certified Organic Farmer was formed to promote organic farming in California, instilling in the public a new sense of the word organic. This group became one of the first to certify products with an organic seal of approval on the label. In 1979, the state made the organic labeling of foods a law subject to their controls.

In 1980, the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) published its “Report and Recommendations on Organic Farming,”3 in which organic farming was described as a “production system that avoids or largely excludes the use of synthetically compounded fertilizers, pesticides, growth regulators and livestock feed additives. To the maximum extent feasible, organic farming systems rely upon crop rotations, crop residues, animal manures, legumes, green manures, off-farm organic wastes, mechanical cultivation, mineral-bearing rocks and aspects of biological pest control to maintain soil productivity and tilth, to supply plant nutrients and to control insects, weeds and other pests.”

Reasons for interest in this system included:

Increased cost and uncertain availability of energy and chemicals; Increased resistance of weeds and insects to pesticides;

Decline in soil productivity from erosion and accompanying loss of organic matter and plant nutrients;

Pollution of surface waters with agricultural chemicals and sediment;

Destruction of wildlife, bees and beneficial insects by pesticides;

Hazards to human and animal health from pesticides and feed additives;

Detrimental effects of agricultural chemicals on food quality;

Depletion of finite reserves of concentrated plant nutrients (e.g., phosphate rock); and

Decrease in numbers of farms, particularly family-type farms, and disappearance of localized and direct marketing systems.

By the late 1980s, a number of private and state-run certifying bodies were operating in the United States. Standards varied among these entities, causing trouble in commerce. Certifiers often refused to recognize products certified as organic by other agents, which was a problem particularly for organic livestock producers seeking feed, and for processors trying to source ingredients. In addition, a number of well-publicized incidents of fraud began to undermine the credibility of the organic industry.

In an effort to curb these problems, the organic community pursued federal legislation. The result was the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990, which mandated the creation of the National Organic Program (NOP) and the passage of uniform organic standards. These standards were incorporated into NOP regulations.6 Implementation of the regulations began on April 21, 2001, and all organic certifiers, producers, processors and handlers were required to be in full compliance by Oct. 21, 2002.7

Beyond federal legislation, the California Organic Products Act (COPA) was signed into law in 2003, and beginning Jan. 1, 2003, all products sold in California containing a total of less than 70% organic ingredients were no longer allowed to use the word organic on the front labeling panel. Later in 2003, the State Assembly repealed the non-food provision of the COPA but in the end, cosmetics remained a part of the Act.

With the growth of nationwide food stores based on certified organic foods, interest in the organic market has spread to cosmetics and other personal care products. From this interest, several groups have emerged with varying standards for organic certification; most use a seal that appears on product labels to indicate organic certification. Following are some of the major bodies, as well as their requirements. This is not a comprehensive list but it will provide an overview.

National Organic Program (NOP, United States): Within this program are four levels of organic claims for foods. The NOP defines the claims that can be used for agricultural products by their content, excluding water and salt. 100% Organic: For this claim, 100% of the ingredients in the product must be certified organic products and in this case, the USDA Organic seal may be used (see Figure 1).

Organic: To make this claim, 95% of the materials in the product must be certified organic products; the same USDA Organic seal may be used in this instance.

Made with organic ingredients: For this label claim, 70% to 94.99% of the product’s ingredients must be certified organic; in this case, use of the USDA Organic seal is not permitted.

Contains organic: This label claim requires less than 70% of certified organic ingredients in a product and also cannot bear the USDA Organic seal.

Natural Products Association (NPA, United States): This organization was founded in 1936 and was principally concerned with dietary supplements. The group represents more than 10,000 retailers, manufacturers, wholesalers and distributors of natural products, including foods, dietary supplements, and health and beauty aids. On May 1, 2008, the group issued its certification program for personal care products. In order to display the NPA seal (see Figure 2), a product must meet the following requirements:
Contain at least 95% truly natural ingredients or ingredients that are derived from natural sources;

Contain no ingredients linked with potentially suspected human health risks;

Not be processed in ways that significantly or adversely alter the purity of its natural ingredients; Include ingredients derived from a purposeful, renewable/plentiful source found in nature (flora, fauna, mineral);

Be minimally processed and avoid the use of synthetic or harsh chemicals so as not to dilute the material’s purity; and

Should contain non-natural ingredients only where viable natural alternative ingredients are unavailable, and only when they pose absolutely no potentially suspected human health risks.


The Natural Products Association also has published8 a list including 839 ingredients that it considers meets these requirements.

Cosmetics Organic and Natural Standard (COSMOS, EU): As noted above, COSMOS is an independent effort in the EU, with its draft published in November 2008. This standard was developed from collaborations between working groups including: the Instituto per la Certificazione Etica e Ambientale (ICEA in Italy); the Federation of German Industries and Trading Firms for Pharmaceuticals, Health Care Goods, Dietary Supplements and Personal Hygiene products (BDIH in Germany); Bioforum in Belgium; the French Professional Association of the Ecological and Organic Cosmetics, and a French certification organization (Cosmebio/Ecocert in France); and an environmental charity promoting sustainable, organic farming and championing human health (The Soil Association in the UK). The COSMOS draft is available at www.cosmos-standard.org.

These standards describe five categories of ingredients: water, minerals, physically processed agro-ingredients, chemically processed agro-ingredients and synthetic materials. The draft details what materials are and are not allowed. It is interesting to note the chemical reactions that are and are not allowed (see COSMOS Chemical Reactions).

Under Appendix II of the COSMOS standard, the following synthetic ingredients are allowed: benzoic acid, benzyl alcohol, dehydroacetic acid, denatonium benzoate, heliotropine, salicylic acid, sorbic acid and tetrasodium glutamate diacetate. The second part of Appendix II lists the mineral origin products allowed—which contradicts the initial five categories of organic ingredients listed since “mineral” is included one of the organic ingredient categories.

California Organic Program (United States): Products sold in California must comply with the 2003 COPA Act10 to be labeled organic. These products also must be at least 70% organic, not including water and salt content. Like the USDA program, this program attempts to apply a food law to cosmetics. All organic ingredients used in organic products must be certified by one of the organizations listed by the USDA. There are additional registration fees and other labeling requirements.

Organic and Sustainable Industry Standards (OASIS, United States): OASIS was developed and is observed by major cosmetic companies in the United States such as L’Oréal and Estée Lauder. This standard certifies products at two levels—organic or made with organic. The made with organic designation requires 70% minimum organic content with additional criteria for the remaining 30% of ingredients. The organic label claim will require a minimum of 85% organic content until January 2010, at which time it will increase to a requirement of 90% minimum organic content; the minimum requirement will increase a third time to 95% by 2012. Products that cannot achieve a 95% organic level, such as soap, must use the made with organic claim.
This interval approach takes into consideration the fact that at least two years are necessary for surfactant and emulsifier manufacturers to put enough products into the commercial stream to supply the industry with organic versions of functional ingredients. Since one of the goals of OASIS is to promote the development of more raw materials developed from organic starting materials, this approach works with chemical manufacturers to achieve these goals.

Whole Foods—Premium Body Care Seal (United States): One of the major retail outlets for organic products is the Whole Foods supermarket chain. This group has established its own rules and symbol. As of press time, the author has not been able to obtain the rules or the symbol. The group lists more than 250 ingredients that are not allowed, and also does not allow animal testing or organic UV filters. The group is aligned with the Environmental Working Group (EWG).

Organic Consumers Association (United States): This final group was established in 1998 in opposition to the USDA’s NOP program, and deals primarily with the food area. It has been involved in litigation with other standards.

Comments

What chaos. Why are there so many different organizations, standards, symbols—and now, lawsuits? There is only one answer: marketing. One may question whether the companies selling cosmetics stamped with these symbols care about anything more than selling products. The underlying message is that consumers have been misled to believe that these products are safer than non-natural or non-organic cosmetics. These organizations’ definitions are contradictory and in some ways, amusing. One set of rules states that water found in the Aloe barbadensis leaf is organic while water from the faucet is not. Water is water is water. Also, natural minerals are allowed as colorants but they cannot be processed; as a minor point, this means that with the exception of mica, none of these natural minerals would be permitted in cosmetics.

Natural iron oxides, for example, would be in violation of FDA, EU and Japanese standards since ground iron oxide ores have enough lead, mercury, arsenic, cadmium, etc., in them to keep Proposition 65 lawyers in California busy filing lawsuits forever. Natural does not mean safe. In fact, the NPA’s list of permitted “safe ingredients” includes 15 of the EU’s 26 listed fragrance allergens. Perhaps natural allergens are better, then? And while one firm stands behind the EWG and proclaims that synthetic UV filters are dangerous, only permitting ZnO and TiO2, the International Agency for Research on Cancer has in the meantime declared TiO2 to be a known human carcinogen; plus, synthetic ZnO is the only ZnO used since its natural ore only exists with lead.

How far can this go?

Do natural or organic cosmetics impart real benefits or are they just another marketing fad? As the economy in the United States declines, it appears that consumers are still spending money for organic foods but are foregoing higher priced organic personal care products. This column is titled “Caveat Emptor,” which means “let the buyer beware.”

This column also calls to mind a quote by David Hannum, among others, that states: “There’s a sucker born every minute.” In this author’s opinion, that is what keeps these products on the store shelf.

About the Author:
David C. Steinberg
David C. Steinberg is president of Steinberg and Associates, a cosmetic consulting firm. David writes a column for Cosmetics and Toiletries magazine and is a fellow in the Society of Cosmetic Chemists. David is an adjunct professor at Farleigh Dickinson University and an instructor for the Society of Cosmetic Chemists and a past president of the Society of Cosmetic Chemists.
Suggested further reading: Preservatives for Cosmetics
http://www.skininc.com/sk...nts/82605907.html?page=1
 
@Carebear

Wow like your signature says you can't cure stupid...Duh soap is a man made product...To think that anything synthetic produce by man in a lab is safe for long term use on person's skin which is adsorb into our bodies is down right ignorant thinking. Don't get so catch up on the chemical process of how soap is made, beware of what other ingredients beside the lye that goes into making finish soap. If you're not aware of where oils, FO and EO are source from (meaning country of origin) or how they're made, how the plants are treated up to extraction process & what process is use in extracting EO or plant seed oil than why would you even bother buying it in the first place and using it in your formulations.
 
glad I could shed some light on it. :)

and you posed a good question - why would you?
 
So if I wanted to make a soap and say it contains organic ingredients, if I understand this correctly it would have to contain 70% organic ingredients? Is that even possible to get to 70% considering the percentage of water and lye? I'm not planning to do this but I am wondering because I recently joined a buying club to get grass fed meat and raw milk and other organic stuff. They sent me an email about their new organic soap so I headed over to check it out. When the owner noticed me reading the labels he rushed over to gush about the soap not knowing I make my own. It is made by monks. The ingredients are water, olive oil, palm oil, coconut oil and sodium hydroxide. Nothing fancy and the bars were pretty small. He started talking about the monks make everything from scratch even press the oil. Since I grew up near the Monastery, I mentioned I knew of no area large enough to have those 3 kinds of trees and that palm usually comes from Asia. I have never seen olive trees up there and thought they needed warmer weather too.
As I walked away, he told another employee it was a "special recipe" only found there. The recipe looked more basic than my first attempts at soap making and maybe even less attractive. I concluded that if it was truly organic, it would have said so on the label and now I wonder if the rest of their stuff is really organic.
 
you have to count the lye, but you are not allowed to include the water in your calculation.
 
Maria said:
.... It is made by monks. The ingredients are water, olive oil, palm oil, coconut oil and sodium hydroxide. Nothing fancy and the bars were pretty small. He started talking about the monks make everything from scratch even press the oil. Since I grew up near the Monastery, I mentioned I knew of no area large enough to have those 3 kinds of trees and that palm usually comes from Asia. I have never seen olive trees up there and thought they needed warmer weather too.
As I walked away, he told another employee it was a "special recipe" only found there. The recipe looked more basic than my first attempts at soap making and maybe even less attractive. I concluded that if it was truly organic, it would have said so on the label and now I wonder if the rest of their stuff is really organic.

I wonder if they ship in the coconuts and palm raw and then the monks press the oil out? That would be close enough for me not to mention it, I suppose. Olives they might grow the same way we look at New Jersey corn: "Close to Home Grown." :)

Alternately, the tropicals could be grown in a conservatory, but I can't imagine it would be an efficient process or result in a great deal of oil unless they have a truly enormous space.

I'm developing the Soap Eye myself and looking at what's available. Granted, my first soap wasn't exactly competitive, but I didn't think it would be. #2 came out looking as good as most of what's available, and a delightful pale blue. #3 is put to bed as of 11:30 PM and looks pretty durned good so far.

Once I find a recipe I like, it's time to try...swirls!
 
Organic and Natural: Caveat Emptor...

You know... I see a post like this and I think... "I'm not gonna read all that!" and so then I don't read any of it. :lol:

I have a soap tree in my back yard which is the only place I think you can get truly natural soap. The bars ripen in the sun and when the labels are fully formed you know they are ready to pick. :wink:
 
xyxoxy said:
Organic and Natural: Caveat Emptor...

You know... I see a post like this and I think... "I'm not gonna read all that!" and so then I don't read any of it. :lol:

I have a soap tree in my back yard which is the only place I think you can get truly natural soap. The bars ripen in the sun and when the labels are fully formed you know they are ready to pick. :wink:

Thanks Mickey, I couldn't have said it better!

BTW, can I get a start off that tree? :D
 
Oh, my bad... didn't realize it was so long. I know it must be a boring read if you aren't really interested in it. I'm glad you spared yourself the agony of that whole thing - but I found it interesting and I hope one or two in passing thought so, too.
 
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