Liquid soap with cloudy layer on top, clear on bottom

[annie7216]

Hi everyone

I know that the range of expertise on this forum can help me understand what I did wrong. I finally tried liquid soap after making cp soap for years. This was my test case recipe:

3.6 oz palm
4.2 oz coconut oil
18 oz soybean oil
6 oz castor oil

6.3 oz KOH
18.9 oz distilled water.

I cooked forever (about 8 hrs) and it was translucent. I diluted (forever again, about 2 days worth) with about 70 oz distilled water. It was thick, but all clumps were gone.

I used citric acid onlly for neutralization. A 20% solution of which I added 2.5 tablespoons. It curdled upon neutralization then cleared after another day. It was a rich amber color. I then reheated and added lemongrass, orange, and peppermint essential oil to divided doses of the soap. It immediately clouded up. I placed in to sequester and now the peppermint is ok but the other 2 are 3/4 cloudy (top layer) and 1/4 clearish (bottom layer).

I tried googling this, but I cannot find what it means. I'd really appreciate your expertise. So far, I am not liking liquid soapmaking!

Thanks so much
Annie

 

[Susie]

Hi Annie!

As far as I can tell from SoapCalc and SBM lye calculators, you used in the neighborhood of 10% superfat. It did not need neutralization. I would pH test it with a reliable meter first, but you might be able to save it with judicious use of a KOH/H2O mixture. Will give you the link to the thread someone posted a while back in moment.

**EDIT** OK, my search-fu is completely broken. Can someone help? Perhaps a DeeAnna rescue?

 

[annie7216]

lye calculations

Hi Susie
Thank you for your reply. I always do my lye calculations by hand, I'm not sure where I went wrong. If anyone would be willing to check my math, I'd be really appreciative.

Palm oil SAP rate = .139 X 3.6 (oz oil) = .50
coconut oil sap rate .252 X 4.2 (oz oil) = 1.0
soybean oil sap rate .188 X 18 (oz oil) = 3.3
castor oil sap rate .179 X 6 (oz oil) = 1.07

add together .5 + 1.0 + 3.3 + 1.07 = 5.87 lye at 0 discount

I wanted to give an 8% excess not a 10% so I multiplied 5.87 X .08 = .46

I added .46 to 5.87 and got a total of 6.3 lye which I thought was at an 8% lye excess.

I would really really appreciate a check of my math because this is how I make all my soap. Thank you so much.
Anne

 

[DeeAnna]

Palm oil saponification value is .145 for NaOH and .203 for KOH according to my notes.

 

[annie7216]

palm oil sap

Ugh, yes you're right DeeAnna. I had the wrong palm oil sap value. Thank you for checking.
But I'm still not sure it would have been enough of an error to mess up the soap. The lye amount would only have gone up by .2.

 

[KristaY]

Hi Annie! Take a quick look at this thread and see if it's what you're experiencing. My separation was due to fragrance.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47548

 

[seven]

These are the SAP values I got from soapcalc for KOH:

palm 0.199
coconut 0.257
soy 0.191
castor bean 0.18

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I always do my lye calculations by hand, I'm not sure where I went wrong...."
"...citric acid onlly for neutralization. A 20% solution of which I added 2.5 tablespoons..."
"...The lye amount would only have gone up by .2...."
"...from SoapCalc and SBM lye calculators, you used in the neighborhood of 10% superfat...."

So, okay, from what I'm seeing, the issue is that small errors all add up. Here is a quick check. (Please bear in mind I haven't yet finished my first cuppa joe this morning, so my math might be a bit shaky.)

You added 2.5 TBL of a 20% citric acid solution which is about 0.25 oz citric by weight. That would consume 0.25*6/10*1.403 = 0.2 oz KOH.

You miscalculated by using the wrong Sap value, so used another 0.2 oz less KOH than required.

By using only 6.3 oz KOH rather than 6.3+0.2+0.2 = 6.7 oz KOH, the error is (6.7-6.3)/6.3*100%=6.3% less KOH than required.

And another issue is that I'm guessing you did not realize when you calculated your recipe is that the KOH we use to make LS is not 100% pure. It is only about 90% to 92% KOH. So that 6.3 oz of purchased KOH is actually only 5.7 oz of 100% KOH. Most of the online soap recipe calculators are set up to take this into account.

 

[annie7216]

Hi Dee Anna, even without coffee your math is great! Thank you so much for taking the time to help.
I did know about the KOH being less than 100% pure and did add in (what I thought was) a lye excess of 8% but not 10%. I find it very confusing. Every online calculator gives me a different value that's why I prefer calculations by hand. It seems that some KOH calculators are calibrated to 0 and some are calibrated to a lye excess. I have none of these problems with good old cp soap! Not sure this type of soaping is for me.

 

[annie7216]

HI seven
I realize that the sap values that I used (from chart on site, from nature with love) appeared to not be rounded up. So I got .188 for soybean which I guess would round up to .19. But I used .18. This also happened for castor oil. I didn't know we were supposed to round them. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[annie7216]

Kristy
Yes that is exactly what happened to my soap. It was fine before I added the essential oils. I don't understand. Would polysorbate 80 work? Can I use the soap the way it is?

 

[PrairieLights]

Following.
I had some perfect LS- and the portion scented with EO's separated. I shook it up and 2 weeks later it is still fine. Gosh... I think I am starting to have a theme (had a CP batch separate on me today)

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Every online calculator gives me a different value that's why I prefer calculations by hand...."

Well, yes, that is true. But why are hand calcs any "better"? I'm playing devil's advocate here, by the way, not trying to change what is working for you.

Think about it -- you had to pick certain saponification values for your hand calculations, right? So your calcs are going to be different than the online recipe calcs. And, yes, each online calc differs, at least a bit, from the others. I'm not sure that is a huge issue, because it's all an educated guess anyway. We really have no idea if the sap values we are using are really the precise sap values for the fats sitting on our kitchen counters ready to be made into soap. The only way to ensure that kind of accuracy is to actually test the saponification value of the actual fats.

Given that the sap values are estimates, hopefully close estimates, but still estimates, my advice is to pick a calc, whether online or one of your own making, and just use it consistently and correctly.

I have created my own spreadsheet soap recipe calculator. I'm not into doing the calculations by hand. I did enough to prove I understood the method and then translated the process into Excel. As you have found out, it's too easy to make mistakes doing it by hand ... and all that repetition is really boring to me!

My calc takes into account KOH at 92.5% purity based on my supplier's info. It also takes into account NaOH purity at 97%, again based on supplier info, which is something I do not think many soapers worry about. I used as many of soapcalc's sap values as possible for reasonable consistency with soapcalc. That way I can use soapcalc as a double check for accuracy.

"...I didn't know we were supposed to round them...."

For the record, do NOT ever round sap values when doing calculations. Use all three digits all of the time. The only rounding should be on your final lye amount to get the correct number of significant digits for the type of scale you are using. Many people choose to round the final lye number DOWN and round the fat weight UP, all to ensure safety. This isn't the kind of rounding I would teach in my math and computer classes, but it makes perfect sense in the context of soaping.

 

[annie7216]

Hi DeeAnna
Thank you for your well thought out reply. I guess I thought that sap values, on charts, were all identical, and that online calculators all differed. I was wrong. It would make my life waay simpler if I used an online calculator rather than my hand calculations. I am always worried that I made an error, so I double check and triple check.
Thank for the advice about rounding. I never did before except for the final lye amount, as you suggested. And I too round down.
I really like your idea about an Excel worksheet. That is fabulous. I would still feel like I had the control of my own calculations, but I would lose the error factor! I did take the KOH purity level into account but never worried about the NaOH level, but this is something to consider.
Thanks again.

 

[annie7216]

Prairie Lights, I too shook up the liquid soap. Now its starting to separate gain, but I think it is slowly going away. Maybe I just need patience. I find that liquid soap is definitely a lesson in patience.

 

[KristaY]

Prairie Lights, I too shook up the liquid soap. Now its starting to separate gain, but I think it is slowly going away. Maybe I just need patience. I find that liquid soap is definitely a lesson in patience.

In my personal experience, once the separation has occurred it will keep separating. I can shake and it'll look great but will eventually fall out of solution again. Has this been the same for others? I'm working to fix it with PS 80 (thanks for that advice, IrishLass!).

 

[DeeAnna]

"...sap values, on charts, were all identical, and that online calculators all differed..."

<chuckle!> Yep, I can appreciate why you thought that. Here are two examples of the fatty acids (FA) in lard. Both sets of numbers are averages of many different individual samples.

FA name SoapCalc
Capric na
Lauric na
Myristic 1
Myristoleic na
Palmitic 28
Palmitoleic na
Sapienic na
Margaric na
Stearic 13
Oleic 46
Elaidic na
Ricinoleic na
Vaccenic na
Linoleic 6

FA name ResearchDiets
Capric 0.1
Lauric 0.1
Myristic 1.1
Myristoleic na
Palmitic 19.4
Palmitoleic 1.4
Sapienic na
Margaric 0.3
Stearic 10.6
Oleic 33.4
Elaidic na
Ricinoleic na
Vaccenic na
Linoleic 22.4

Just looking at the primary fatty acid -- oleic -- you see that SoapCalc shows 46% oleic and the data from Research Diets shows 33.4% oleic.

Palmitic varies from 28% in SC to 19.4% in RD. The saponification value of each will be slightly different due to the different fatty acids.

Quite a difference, hey? They're both legitimate data sources, but the information is radically different. The composition of fat varies with the season, the environmental conditions, the diet (if from an animal), location (palm kernel vs. palm), genetics, etc.

Which saponification value should you use in hand calculations? Without knowledge of the sap value of YOUR particular lard, I'd probably default to soapcalc's values for no other reason than you can use SoapCalc as a check.

Hope this helps!

 

[DeeAnna]

Here's more. These are the NaOH saponification values for some common soaping fats. I gleaned the data from four different sources -- the Certified Lye company, SoapCalc, The Soap Dish, and Majestic Mountain Sage. SMF is terrible at showing tables in a message, so I've put the info in as an image. You can see the sap values are pretty close for many of the fats, but the sap values for several of the fats vary somewhat -- check out coconut oil!

PS: At the time I did this work, I hadn't yet collected many of the sap values from SoapCalc, but I think the numbers in the table still make my point.

 

[KristaY]

Quite a difference, hey? They're both legitimate data sources, but the information is radically different. The composition of fat varies with the season, the environmental conditions, the diet (if from an animal), location (palm kernel vs. palm), genetics, etc.

Wow. DeeAnna, thank you so much for doing all this research. I've always wondered why I get different amounts of NaOH from different sites when I enter the exact same info into each. Now I know. So basically the sap & NaOH given are a ballpark instead of an exact as I've always thought. If we enter 5% SF for our recipe we may end up higher or lower depending on all the variables. It makes me re-think several of my batches that turned out odd. Maybe one traced differently than one I made a month ago, was brittle or too soft to cut at 24 hours, etc. It may explain why the soaping gremlins visit periodically too. This data tells us it's basically a soaping crap shoot (to a certain extent) when it comes to determining the amount of lye needed. This is one of those "a-ah" moments for me.

DeeAnna, you always make me think outside the box which I love. Thanks for that! :-D

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I've always wondered why I get different amounts of NaOH from different sites when I enter the exact same info into each. Now I know. So basically the sap & NaOH given are a ballpark instead of an exact as I've always thought...."

Exactly, Krista! You nailed it.

Soap recipe calculators are a "model" of reality, as scientists and engineers use the word. Models can be very close representations of the real world, but they are not perfect. In the case of soap recipe calculators, there is some unknown amount of error based on the model-maker's choice of sap values compared with the actual sap values for your real-life fats.

The point is to take the calculators answers seriously, but just understand there is some error involved. I recommend picking a "model" (a soap recipe calculator) that you like to use best and stick with it. You will learn what superfat and other settings work best for that particular model of reality, so you get the most consistent results as possible.

"...It makes me re-think several of my batches that turned out odd. Maybe one traced differently than one I made a month ago, was brittle or too soft to cut at 24 hours, etc. It may explain why the soaping gremlins visit periodically too..."

Another thing to keep in mind is that it's not only the error in the model that can affect your soaping results. The fats you are using vary in their chemical makeup, and free fatty acids (FFAs) are a particular concern. Soapers really can't see, smell, or otherwise measure FFAs, but FFAs can cause radically unexpected behavior when making soap.

A fresh oil that has been carefully processed will have a low percentage of FFAs. If you look at the standards, for example, for extra virgin olive oil, olive oil, pomace, and the other grades of olive oil, you'll see one of the requirements for EVOO is a low acid %. Olive oil and pomace are allowed higher acid %'s than EVOO. The "acid" is the FFAs.

An oil with low FFAs will probably trace relatively slowly and act in a fairly predictable way when making soap. An oil that is older or has been heated too much or is a lower grade oil (pomace) will have a higher percentage of FFAs. This oil may smell and look perfectly fine, but the extra FFAs may cause the batter to trace quicker. At worst, the batter could rice or even seize if the FFAs are high enough.