Lard vs. Soy Wax

Soapmaking Forum

Help Support Soapmaking Forum:

Dawni

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
3,545
Reaction score
5,937
Location
Philippines
Update at 6mos:

In both pics the soap with soy wax 444 is on the right.
_20191017_131425.JPG
_20191017_131526.JPG

The brown stuff on the bottom is cocoa powder I used to differentiate them.

As you can see, the soy wax soap has started what looks like DOS to me. It doesn't smell rancid, but for some reason I'm getting a waxy smell more from where the discoloration is than the other parts. Or is that rancidity?

The lard soap has also discolored and I'm waiting to see if this is DOS. If it is then it took longer to get it. Initially the lard soap wasn't as white as the soy wax one but now neither are white lol The sweating also seems to have solved my ash issue? Dunno..

Both soaps are stored in a lined cardboard box next to each other, and were cured side by side so conditions are fairly equal.

The soy wax soap is also still sticky, as I mentioned in the previous update, and is also slightly sweaty, considering it's in a box. The lard soap is fairly dry. Putting my soaps in a box helped keep my cured soleseifes dry so I'm wondering why this one is sweating.

I'm also positive this isn't the soap that I dropped, but seems like the soy wax soap had warped a bit more than the lard soap, not counting that side that looks dented.

As for lather and conditioning I'll have to update later again, after I slice off some slivers from the bottoms n try em. I can't seem to find where I hid the other bars hahaha
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Messages
4,341
Reaction score
10,341
Location
Virginia
@Dawni thanks for providing this very clear side by side comparison. Now that I started using soy wax, I don’t want to see DOS in anyone’s soy wax soap! When I read back through this thread I noticed that you used 10% grapeseed oil. Have you used it in any other soaps you make? What option did you use for the soy wax in the calculator? I’m leaning towards thinking SAP .136-.137 is too low for GW 415. If it’s also too low for 444, your soap would have a slightly higher SF than you calculated. Perhaps the combination of grapeseed oil and a slightly higher SF would increase the potential for DOS, particularly in your hot, humid environment. Just a speculation though.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
5,143
Reaction score
3,103
Location
Florida
Update at 6mos:

In both pics the soap with soy wax 444 is on the right.
View attachment 42089 View attachment 42088
The brown stuff on the bottom is cocoa powder I used to differentiate them.

As you can see, the soy wax soap has started what looks like DOS to me. It doesn't smell rancid, but for some reason I'm getting a waxy smell more from where the discoloration is than the other parts. Or is that rancidity?

The lard soap has also discolored and I'm waiting to see if this is DOS. If it is then it took longer to get it. Initially the lard soap wasn't as white as the soy wax one but now neither are white lol The sweating also seems to have solved my ash issue? Dunno..

Both soaps are stored in a lined cardboard box next to each other, and were cured side by side so conditions are fairly equal.

The soy wax soap is also still sticky, as I mentioned in the previous update, and is also slightly sweaty, considering it's in a box. The lard soap is fairly dry. Putting my soaps in a box helped keep my cured soleseifes dry so I'm wondering why this one is sweating.

I'm also positive this isn't the soap that I dropped, but seems like the soy wax soap had warped a bit more than the lard soap, not counting that side that looks dented.

As for lather and conditioning I'll have to update later again, after I slice off some slivers from the bottoms n try em. I can't seem to find where I hid the other bars hahaha
Actually rancidity doesn’t smell that bad. Somewhat like old crayons.

Update at 6mos:

In both pics the soap with soy wax 444 is on the right.
View attachment 42089 View attachment 42088
The brown stuff on the bottom is cocoa powder I used to differentiate them.

As you can see, the soy wax soap has started what looks like DOS to me. It doesn't smell rancid, but for some reason I'm getting a waxy smell more from where the discoloration is than the other parts. Or is that rancidity?

The lard soap has also discolored and I'm waiting to see if this is DOS. If it is then it took longer to get it. Initially the lard soap wasn't as white as the soy wax one but now neither are white lol The sweating also seems to have solved my ash issue? Dunno..

Both soaps are stored in a lined cardboard box next to each other, and were cured side by side so conditions are fairly equal.

The soy wax soap is also still sticky, as I mentioned in the previous update, and is also slightly sweaty, considering it's in a box. The lard soap is fairly dry. Putting my soaps in a box helped keep my cured soleseifes dry so I'm wondering why this one is sweating.

I'm also positive this isn't the soap that I dropped, but seems like the soy wax soap had warped a bit more than the lard soap, not counting that side that looks dented.

As for lather and conditioning I'll have to update later again, after I slice off some slivers from the bottoms n try em. I can't seem to find where I hid the other bars hahaha
Also, what were your linolenic and linoleic numbers. Higher than 15 seems to bring on the DOS.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Dawni

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
3,545
Reaction score
5,937
Location
Philippines
You could be right @Mobjack Bay. I used the one that says fully hydrogenated soy bean oil (soy wax) coz that was thought to be the correct one. I wonder what my additional SF could be, on top of the 3%...

I've used this amount of grapeseed in other soaps yes, sometimes even higher and so far no DOS. Actually, this is the only one I've seen it in, other than the Castile. Fingers crossed..

@linne1gi I'll have to look it up but I almost never go higher than 15 combined linoleic and linolenic. And old crayons is exactly what I'm thinking of, thank you. I was under the impression it'll smell more like rancid oil lol don't know where I got that idea.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
5,143
Reaction score
3,103
Location
Florida
You could be right @Mobjack Bay. I used the one that says fully hydrogenated soy bean oil (soy wax) coz that was thought to be the correct one. I wonder what my additional SF could be, on top of the 3%...

I've used this amount of grapeseed in other soaps yes, sometimes even higher and so far no DOS. Actually, this is the only one I've seen it in, other than the Castile. Fingers crossed..

@linne1gi I'll have to look it up but I almost never go higher than 15 combined linoleic and linolenic. And old crayons is exactly what I'm thinking of, thank you. I was under the impression it'll smell more like rancid oil lol don't know where I got that idea.
Lol!
 

Cajuma

New Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2019
Messages
2
Reaction score
1
Location
Kansas
I am new to soaping so please forgive me if this is an ignorant question. Is there another lard alternative besides soy wax that would be considered vegan? I love the comparison!
 

Dawni

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
3,545
Reaction score
5,937
Location
Philippines
I am new to soaping so please forgive me if this is an ignorant question. Is there another lard alternative besides soy wax that would be considered vegan? I love the comparison!
Not ignorant at all! You'll find several experiments on that around the forum, and I'm personally waiting for @szaza to post hers hehehe.. But here's one by IrishLass, if you're not opposed to palm.

I only made this comparison to test hardness and longevity. I mentioned it earlier but I'll say again that soy wax isn't a direct replacement for lard. Lather and conditioning might look similar in the calcs but skin feel is totally different in my opinion.

I have no access to palm but I suspect it, or a combination of the butters, would be a better lard replacement if we want to keep the skin feel similar. Next experiment maybe.... Hehe.
 

szaza

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Messages
1,410
Reaction score
2,597
Location
Belgium
I'm personally waiting for @szaza to post hers hehehe..
Soon! just don't expect a revolutionary recipe. It was just a first try at creating a replacement that's still being tested and improvement on the recipe is definitely possible.

@Cajuma just play around with the fatty acid profiles in soapcalc. Find a recipe you want to make a vegan version of and play around with different oils in different amounts to get a similar fatty acid composition. You can simplify by grouping lauric and myristic acids (the total of both should be the same in your recipe as in the recipe you're trying to replace). The same can be done with stearic+palmitic and linoleic+linolenic. That way it gets a bit easier. When replacing lard it's mainly the palmitic+stearic you're looking for. Most butters are high in those oils, but also neem and palm oils. Besides that there are several soft oils that are higher in stearic+palmitic than others, so don't just replace the lard with palm oil or butters, but also see if you can replace some of the soft oils in the recipe.
@Dawni I suspect the trans fats in soy wax will probably be responsible for the difference in skin feel, but haven't gotten around to researching, let alone trying it..
Love the experiment you're doing, thanks for keeping us updated!!
 

Jackie Tobey

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
98
Reaction score
223
Location
Tennessee
Sorry if this has already been addressed. I have just received my soy wax (GW415) in the mail. Do I use the hydrogenated soy wax option or partially hydrogenated soy wax option in soap making friend? From what I’ve read I also need to drop my SF to 2-3. Is this correct? I try to keep my palmitic/stearic combined numbers around 37 when I am formulating a recipe. And I thought the soy wax would be a good alternative to use.
 

szaza

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Messages
1,410
Reaction score
2,597
Location
Belgium
@szaza I also wonder about the trans fat “feel”. I haven’t done any research either, but just thinking about it, the hydrogenated lard that so many use must also be full of trans fats.
Of course I hadn't thought about that yet.. when testing different lards I did notice the one with hydrogenated lard had a more 'slippery' feel. Is this something others have experienced as well?
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Messages
4,341
Reaction score
10,341
Location
Virginia
Of course I hadn't thought about that yet.. when testing different lards I did notice the one with hydrogenated lard had a more 'slippery' feel. Is this something others have experienced as well?
I searched and searched trying to find a paper on the trans fats in lard, but so far no luck. I think I need to track down a copy of “The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics” which apparently is a compendium of data and tables of “standard” information, including on fats.
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Messages
4,341
Reaction score
10,341
Location
Virginia
You could be right @Mobjack Bay. I used the one that says fully hydrogenated soy bean oil (soy wax) coz that was thought to be the correct one. I wonder what my additional SF could be, on top of the 3%...

Based on the calculation I did here, for a recipe with 20% GW 415 and using the SAP I estimated (.144) instead of .136, it increases the lye needed by about 1%, which I assume equates to 1% less superfat than if you use .136 in the calculator. As the percentage of GW 415 goes up in the recipe, being off on the SAP would mean a greater increase in SF compared with using it at 20%. You could get an idea by calculating your recipe using lard (SAP .141), tallow (SAP .143) or oleic acid (SAP. 144) as a proxy for whatever you’re entering for soy wax now. Then you can see how much of a difference you get in the lye wt.
 

Dawni

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
3,545
Reaction score
5,937
Location
Philippines
Who wants an update at 1yr 4.5mos?

Lard soap on the left, soy wax 444 on the right. Please read the preceding posts, as this is not to show that soy wax is a direct replacement to lard - except for hardness lol
IMG_20200904_121312.jpg

Yep that's DO.S aka dreaded orange soap, not spots lol

But I feel I should mention that it does NOT smell like old crayons now, like mentioned in the above posts

The lard soap smells like soap :)
 

penelopejane

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2015
Messages
5,533
Reaction score
4,383
Location
Sth Coast, NSW, Australia
Who wants an update at 1yr 4.5mos?

Lard soap on the left, soy wax 444 on the right. Please read the preceding posts, as this is not to show that soy wax is a direct replacement to lard - except for hardness lol
View attachment 49223
Yep that's DO.S aka dreaded orange soap, not spots lol

But I feel I should mention that it does NOT smell like old crayons now, like mentioned in the above posts

The lard soap smells like soap :)
So very sad, Dawni.
Does the soy wax one smell like rancid oils now?
 
Top