Juices with citric acid

[Lyma]

As i've read many times, juices with citric acid neutralize part of the lye. This neutralization in other words means a soap with an increased superfatting percentage or it's something more serious than i can imagine?
Also i've read somewhere that citric acid helps the emulsification between oils and lye. Is this true?
Regarding the above, what percentage rate of citric juices to the water amount of a recipe you suggest?

 

[danahuff]

I just watched this video last night. Watch it until the end. I think you can use some citrus in soap. I know of folks on this forum who have experimented with it, but I haven't. Just the essential oils.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFOdi989-aU[/ame]

 

[Lindy]

If I ever get some time I need to get my soap from the Citrus Soaps challenge.... I've been thinking about how to do it and I think I have an idea....

 

[Lyma]

I just watched this video last night. Watch it until the end. I think you can use some citrus in soap. I know of folks on this forum who have experimented with it, but I haven't. Just the essential oils.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFOdi989-aU

Thanks for the video Danahuff. Really nice, unfortunately unhappy end!:-(

 

[danahuff]

I kind of liked how she showed what happens. I just hope too many people don't jump the gun and start a batch of this soap without watching until the end.

 

[Lyma]

My queries are still looking for answers...
Does citric acid, by neutralizing lye, increase superfatting in soap or it's something else bad?
Does it help the emulsification process?
Percentage of the liquids?

Anyone?

 

[Lindy]

It does and in order to offset it you need to reduce your SF. It doesn't do anything else bad and it's not going to help with emulsification, at least in my opinion.

 

[Lyma]

It does and in order to offset it you need to reduce your SF. It doesn't do anything else bad and it's not going to help with emulsification, at least in my opinion.

Thanks Lindy, quick and sharp
I suppose it is quite difficult to find how much to reduce SF if we use 50 water/50 juice...

I've made some batches with juices and i haven't any problem. But i really want to know things in theory so to be able to explain why things happen and ecounter a problem if appears.

 

[Lindy]

I have heard that you can neutralize the citric acid by adding lye until it tastes sweet. Somehow that doesn't sound ideal to me :lolno: If you have pH testers then you could do it that way so you actually get a neutral solution to add to the soap.

 

[Lyma]

Yes but then we won't have a lemon or orange juice as we know it but something else....i suppose.

 

[Lindy]

I think you still get the properties, or as many of them as you would if you had the lye adjusted in the batch itself.....

 

[tosapounaki]

Theoritically, the juice, as it is a water solution, contains citric acid ions. When the lye is added in the solution it will react with the citric acid ions, creating salt. The salt created is soluble, so the when you stir the reaction mixture after adding the lye solution into the oils, the salt will be resolved to ions again and the alkali will eventually find it's way to react with the oils. So, the saponification will be slower in a juice solution, but it will definately take place.

I tried it yesterday with orange juice and it took about 1 hour and 15 minutes to trace.
Today I removed the mold and the soap is just great!

 

[Lyma]

Theoritically, the juice, as it is a water solution, contains citric acid ions. When the lye is added in the solution it will react with the citric acid ions, creating salt. The salt created is soluble, so the when you stir the reaction mixture after adding the lye solution into the oils, the salt will be resolved to ions again and the alkali will eventually find it's way to react with the oils. So, the saponification will be slower in a juice solution, but it will definately take place.

I tried it yesterday with orange juice and it took about 1 hour and 15 minutes to trace.
Today I removed the mold and the soap is just great!

Great explanation and it absolutely fits to my practical experience so far...

Geia sou Ellada

 

[Lindy]

Thank you for the explanation....

 

[DeeAnna]

...when you stir the reaction mixture after adding the lye solution into the oils, the salt will be resolved to ions again and the alkali will eventually find it's way to react with the oils....

Can you cite a source for your explanation? I question the validity of your explanation, given what I know about acid-base chemistry.

--DeeAnna

 

[tosapounaki]

Can you cite a source for your explanation? I question the validity of your explanation, given what I know about acid-base chemistry.

--DeeAnna

Hello, DeeAnna, I am a chemist and my sources are my books!
Which part do you question, so that I explain it better to you?

 

[Dorado]

Ohhh, would love to try an orange soap. (just a small batch)
I have a question / idea here:
I grow my own oranges. Before winter, I juice the oranges, (I wait until the oranges are very mature and acid weak),
separates the juice from the water and save only the concentrated juice in the freezer.
The water that separates from the juice is clear and a little bit sweet.

I have still got som oranges left, very sweet.
Will it work if I make the juice I need to soap (38%), separates it, use the juice-water for lye and mix the concentrated juice with the oils :?:

I like a moisturizing soap - will SF 5% be too much or should I go lower
What do you think, will it work :?:

 

[Lindy]

Go lower just because the juice is going to neutralize at least some of the lye.....

 

[DeeAnna]

Go lower just because the juice is going to neutralize at least some of the lye.....

Yes you are right, Lindy. There is going to be a dynamic equilibrium between the sodium hydroxide, the fats, AND the citric acid during the saponification process. The presence of the citric acid will reduce the amount of sodium hydroxide available for saponification, and the net effect is that the actual lye discount (superfat) will be higher than the calculated amount.

 

[Seifenblasen]

Not an expert in anything :twisted:, no words of wisdom, just want to share one of my very favorite soapers making a delicious soap with the juice/pulp of lime and kiwi: :razz:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVG_7dnuksA[/ame]