hp pt volcano

[johnnyusa]

Hey u guys, i screwed up some pine tar soap real good!! Check it out....

That pt was my 3rd hp batch.
Here's my 2nd hp batch w 10 oz less oil than batch #3 and i soaped at the same slightly-higher-than-approved temp but the pt volancoed on me like nothing I've seen. It was a monster rising up from the depths.

Little volcano in 12 quart pot below, but it didn't ruin my day

I took it off the heat @ 215 like Green said but the latent heat in steel pot raised temp to 250 by the time I got my lye mixed.
New 16 quart ss stock pot otw but even larger pot w 1/3rd more capacity would not have saved me from this volcano monster. While i was cleaning i remembered Green said in the book that back in the1800s for industrial hp soapmaking they used pots 3 stories high- prob for volcano space so they could cook at circa 400 degrees.
Anyway, I've screwed up my last two batches of pt. I would really like to have some more pt soap. I've been all out for several months.
Guess I should have tested pt w a smaller batch. That's the first time I've ever lost an entire batch.

 

[AliensrReal]

So much soap! So much to clean. How long did it take you to clean?

 

[johnnyusa]

I didn't clean up nothing yet.
I'm about to go outside an smoke a cigarette then come back n clean all this up in little bit, hoping it doesn't stain the counter like it prob will.
Did i trash this kitchen like a rock star, or what?

 

[Jersey Girl]

Oh nooooooooo….I feel for ya! That would’ve sent me into a major panic attack. Definitely rock star level kitchen trashing!

 

[johnnyusa]

i poured pure bleach on it and it lifted right out, just like magic.
I didn't even barely have to scrub anything!
I didn't think that stain was going to be fixable.
Vinegar & soap didn't do nothing to it but when i poured the pure bleach on it there was some kind of mysterious chemistry afoot.

Brand new Robot Coupe stickblender I haven't even gotten to use yet. I had it plugged in and was going to use it to mix in additives after saponification completed w the KitchenAid.
Should be fine, right?

 

[Jersey Girl]

i poured pure bleach on it and it lifted right out, just like magic.
I didn't even barely have to scrub anything!
I didn't think that stain was going to be fixable.
Vinegar & soap didn't do nothing to it but when i poured the pure bleach on there some kind of mysterious chemistry was afoot.

Brand new Robot Coupe stickblender I haven't even gotten to use yet. I had it plugged in and was going to use it to mix in additives after saponification completed w the KitchenAid.
Should be fine, right?

Looks great. I love bleach. My kids don’t call me the bleach queen for nothing. As long as the soap didn’t get down in those vents, your stick, bender will probably be OK.

 

[johnnyusa]

3 hours to clean that mess up.

 

[AliensrReal]

3 hours to clean that mess up.

You’re a rock star!!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

You're not alone! The same thing happened to @Kcryss about 2 weeks ago -- and she only does HP. You can see the 'lovely' mess she made in this thread.

The key to success in making Pine Tar Soap is you need to soap cool. In all my 20 years of soaping, I haven't met anyone who tried to hot process it. So, I can't help but wonder where both of you got the idea at the same time that HP would work??? Hmmm.

 

[johnnyusa]

You're not alone! The same thing happened to @Kcryss about 2 weeks ago -- and she only does HP. You can see the 'lovely' mess she made in this thread.

The key to success in making Pine Tar Soap is you need to soap cool. In all my 20 years of soaping, I haven't met anyone who tried to hot process it. So, I can't help but wonder where both of you got the idea at the same time that HP would work??? Hmmm.

Thanks for comment, Zany. I'm feeling pretty dufus this morning, sir.
What did I do wrong???
I read your pt tips and using cool lye solution DOES sound like the cp answer, but isn't the lye solution supposed to be mixed w oils of the same temp within 10 degrees... or is that really a myth?
Obviously it was too hot and granted that was real dumb, but....
What about low temp hot process pt bars? Would that work or does pt have to be strictly cold process?
The other factor that doubtless contributed but I didn't mention yet is that I was trying Green's trick about not cleaning the soap pot from the previous day's cook, instead of using glycerin as a trace accelerant. My soap pot already had a ton of soap in it (more than the 21g ls paste i used for trace accelerant the day before) when I mixed in the fresh lye w aloe juice for the day's new pt batch...

I'm used to cold process soaping w 220oz fats in a 12 quart stock pot and I havent figured out how to do that w hp yet- yea sure it's probably much better soap, but it's going to take me more time to make the same amount.

 

[Becky1024]

Haha! I did one of those once when I left the crockpot alone for just a few minutes! Mine was shampoo bars. Ran down the sides of the crockpot, across the counter, down the cabinets and onto the floor. My kitchen sparkled when I was done cleaning.

I found if the temperature creeps up to 210 F the batch starts to volcano, so now I keep temperatures below 200 F. Maybe that helps you out.

 

[johnnyusa]

I use body butter or olive:vineger as leave-in conditioner in order to provide hair the req'd acidity after alkalizing soap wash. Gives my hair a ton of body too n takes forever to dry if skip blowdrying w high power neg ion hairdryer. Hairdryers are power tools, too!!
I should prob develop some shampoo bars too for some of my family that isn't in to all that, like Dad for example. Yea i should totally do that.
Anyway, that's great point... it's really the temperature and accelerants that determines when some high temp fluid hot process soap is going to start volcanoing, isn't it?
Have you tried hot processing specifically pine tar soap circa 200F ??????
Do you think maybe pine tar soap is so prone to acceleration that we could perhaps successfully hot process it w/o the appearance of a major volcano monster using a) lower temperatures like 150F / 180F, and b) zero trace accelerants?
And then before a large cook determine the 'volcano point' of any given recipe in regards to temp and trace accelerants using very small recipe in very big pot with one of Ali's titanium milk frothers, instead of my idiot 10k watt stickblender.
Ali was talking in a different thread about the titanium milk frother she's been working w/ lately.
I don't have time for any of this. That's going to take alot of time. I have a huge aversion to making small batches. Soaping isn't fun for me anymore- i've been doing this for 15 years now and it's work but i like having cheap soap and sadly my time is worth less than my money.
I've been trying to learn how to code for a new job since our stupid farm went kaput and I'm stuck back here in Texas now.

 

[Kcryss]

I think the trick to hp pt soap is adding the pt right after gel as an additive or add it towards the end with the pt being no more then 150 degrees. I'll be trying it again in about a month, so I guess I'll find out.

 

[DeeAnna]

The "rule" that you must have the fat and lye within 10 degrees is an utter myth. The real point is the ~soap batter~ temp needs to start at whatever target temperature you want. That "10 degree rule" is to keep beginners out of trouble, but if you're not a beginner, it's not helpful.

A beginner can easily see if their lye at 100F and fats at 90F then the mixture of the two is going to be somewhere in the middle -- maybe around 95F. But it's also true if lye is at 110F and the fats are at 85F, the mixture is also going to be around 95F.

I utterly cannot fathom why someone would want to do a high temp hot process with a pine tar soap. If someone is touting that on Youtube, they're irresponsible.

And another thing -- When the fat temp is above the boiling temp of the lye mixture, there's a real and serious risk of the lye solution boiling and producing caustic steam as it's poured through the hot fat. Some years ago, another person on SMF had that experience when their crock pot overheated the fat and the mess blew all over their kitchen and into their face as they poured the lye solution into the fat. You're lucky you only got a volcano and the soap batter didn't spatter back onto you too.

Large-scale commercial soap making was NOT done as hot process. Historically the method used was the boiled method which isn't at all the same. And those "3 story tall" soap vessels used to make commercial soap were that big because they were making a huge batch of soap at one time, NOT to allow room for uncontrolled expansion of the soap batter. That was the last thing a soap maker wanted to happen. Sheesh.

 

[johnnyusa]

I think the trick to hp pt soap is adding the pt right after gel as an additive or add it towards the end with the pt being no more then 150 degrees. I'll be trying it again in about a month, so I guess I'll find out.

I prefer my pt to pass thru the lye monster, unless I choose to do 1% of the post cook sf w pure pt bc why not.
I think lye calcs will print an output if we ask it for 100% pt soap and so therefore it must be calculating the sap value of the pine tar just like a fat.
Next week I will test a very small htfhp pt recipe in a 16 qt stock pot using Ali's milk frother trying to determine my recipe's 'volcano point' in regards to temp & trace accelerants.
I'll letcha know the deets.

 

[johnnyusa]

The "rule" that you must have the fat and lye within 10 degrees is an utter myth. The real point is the ~soap batter~ temp needs to start at whatever target temperature you want. That "10 degree rule" is to keep beginners out of trouble, but if you're not a beginner, it's not helpful.

A beginner can easily see if their lye at 100F and fats at 90F then the mixture of the two is going to be somewhere in the middle -- maybe around 95F. But it's also true if lye is at 110F and the fats are at 85F, the mixture is also going to be around 95F.

I utterly cannot fathom why someone would want to do a high temp hot process with a pine tar soap. If someone is touting that on Youtube, they're irresponsible.

And another thing -- When the fat temp is above the boiling temp of the lye mixture, there's a real and serious risk of the lye solution boiling and producing caustic steam as it's poured through the hot fat. Some years ago, another person on SMF had that experience when their crock pot overheated the fat and the mess blew all over their kitchen and into their face as they poured the lye solution into the fat. You're lucky you only got a volcano and the soap batter didn't spatter back onto you too.

Large-scale commercial soap making was NOT done as hot process. Historically the method used was the boiled method which isn't at all the same. And those "3 story tall" soap vessels used to make commercial soap were that big because they were making a huge batch of soap at one time, NOT to allow room for uncontrolled expansion of the soap batter. That was the last thing a soap maker wanted to happen. Sheesh.

Copy that about its an average of the temps of the two solutions, DeeAnn. I still follow that beginner rule tho bc when i don't my soap doesn't turn out as well.
Thank you for letting me know about other safety considerations as well esp caustic steam from fats being hotter than the lye.

I was hoping for a harder, longer-lasting bar from hp, but maybe you're right and better to stick w cp for pt. Would you recommend low-temp hp for pt soap?

I still kinda just still want to see if I can do it. I feel like it could safe & repeatable if I could just determine the volcano point for any given test recipe.
From now on, for high temp hp, I'm ALWAYS going to do a very small test in a giant pot w/ ali's milk frother to determine the volcano point of any new recipe.
That was dangerous and stupid and I'm not going to do it again.
You're also prob right that i got lucky not to get splattered. My guardian angels r great, and thanks God! It's good of you to point that out as I didn't consider splatter. That can happen, huh? It was totally like a waterfall of soap coming down, all over my stickblenders. I tried to use the whisk but I had to jump out of the way pretty quick n then move my sb too n just watch it. It was awful.
I WAS wearing a top-of-the-line industrial-grade respirator w full face shield n gloves tho.
Need to normalize the temp in pot (from latent heat in the steel after removing from heat souce) before mixing the lye.
Green tells us for htfhp to mix dry lye w liquids and not let it cool before mixing w fats in order to to catalyze the reaction at a lower fat temp. Obviously I'm not going to be doing that again w pine tar. I learned my lesson good, ma'am.
Green says all the billion-dollar soap companies today are using htfhp and I think she said in the 1800s too but I'd have to go check my book on that second point to be sure.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a soaping rig that does "allow room for uncontrolled expansion of the soap batter"? Nice wording btw, uncontrolled expansion... very excellent.
It was like the soap wanted to sublimate from a liquid to a solid by volcanoing into a gas first.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

therefore it must be calculating the sap value of the pine tar just like a fat.

Nope. Not so. Pine Tar contains no Fatty Acids.

Treat Pine Tar as an additive as it has only a negligible SAP Value. Soapcalc.com lists Pine Tar but it does not factor into the final calculation.
FYI: NaOH SAP Value: .043 - .0603.

I took the trouble of calculating 100% Pine Tar on Soap Calc for you. Note where it says "Pine Tar; lye calc only no FA". It exists there as a place holder only, as I understand it, to incorporate the % of PT into the total batch size. IMO and IME, since it does not saponify, the % of PT you choose to use functions as Super Fat/Lye Discount.

I know very well that it takes time to wrap your head around it... as it did for me so very long ago. At that time, I was warned that it would take all of 27 seconds for the PT to react with the lye. And it did! So, stir with a spoon and get ready to react when that happens.

For a better understanding of how to proceed for your next HP batch, please read and follow the technique as much as you can into your next attempt. PINE TAR SOAP TIPS & TECHNIQUES

HTH AND GOOD LUCK!

 

[johnnyusa]

yea, pine tar doesn't have fatty acids but it does have hydrocarbons & pine tar acids, according to Wikipedia.
Can't hydrocarbons be saponified?
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1040708A/enAlso, shouldn't the tar acids in pt be subject to an acid-base reaction, since even weak acids react w/ strong alkali?
I think it only requires 6 ounces of KOH to saponify 100 ounces of pine tar, whereas coconut oil would require 25.6 oz KOH.
Even if i'm totally wrong about all of that I still prefer the pt to pass thru the lye monster.
I only messed up my last cp pt batch bc i was soaping angry bc i didn't want to be soaping that day and after i poured in the lye solution i actually cleaned out the dang lye pot like a fool before stickblending it and by then it was too late bc i'd used peppermint EOs in the fats that accelerated it way too fast and it was siezing on me.
Peppermint is great scent for liquid pt but never ever again for the solid. I learned my lesson the hard way not to soap angry or use EOs that cause acceleration in pt bar soap.
I still spooned it all into the mold tho and when it cured it was fine albeit not pretty. I kind of wish i would have kept some of it for myself but I gave the whole 20 lb batch to some Buddhist monks.
PS - DeeAnn, after i thought about it you're absolutely right- it DID splatter all over me, but I just didn't notice until later after the cook when I wiped all the gunk off off my face shield w a wet cloth i remember now thinking, wow, that's a lot of gunk.
I wouldn't even think of attempting such a thing without an industrial-grade respirator w/ full face shield and every single inch of skin covered up, including a hat.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Even if i'm totally wrong about all of that I still prefer the pt to pass thru the lye monster.

I don't have the science background to respond to your research/theory. But I can say that I hesitate to discourage creativity. So, GO FOR IT!

I look forward to reading results. With any luck, we''l all learn something!

 

[Kcryss]

I prefer my pt to pass thru the lye monster, unless I choose to do 1% of the post cook sf w pure pt bc why not.
I think lye calcs will print an output if we ask it for 100% pt soap and so therefore it must be calculating the sap value of the pine tar just like a fat.
Next week I will test a very small htfhp pt recipe in a 16 qt stock pot using Ali's milk frother trying to determine my recipe's 'volcano point' in regards to temp & trace accelerants.
I'll letcha know the deets.

I agree with adding it before complete saponification which is why I added it right before it finished. That's when it decided to bubble up and over ... I did warm the PT, but I didn't check the temp on it before adding. I'm a little worried about doing it again before saponification. Not sure I'm going to risk it again.
For hthp, I heat the oils to between 160 and 180, mix the lye, let it cool just a couple of minutes, down to about 180 before adding to the oils. The lye heats it up and it cooks at ~200. I rarely have volcanos anymore.