[gel question] Officially Hate Soap... why can't I stop?

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OnePlus

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I have been making a couple batches a week for the past month and tried every which way. Different temperatures. Cpop vs. fridge. All different results... here are fun ones. So someone please explain:

1:1 Lye to water ratio and left out uninsulated - partial gel and crumbly (was mixed at very high temperature)

1:1 Lye to water ratio and left out uninsulated - no gel and crumbly (mixed at 110 degrees)

2:5 Lye to water ratio and put in 140 degree oven while off - full gel and small bubbly patten along the top and sides of the mold (mixed at 110 degrees)

2:5 same as above but oven was cooler - created smaller bubbles and almost a fuzzy texture along the sides... NOT SMOOTH though. I can easily trim off the edges but its frustrating to make otherwise perfect soap and have to trim each bar pretty.

2:5 lye to water ratio, mixed at 90 degrees and very thick trace. Looked like vanilla pudding at pour and was ready to unmold and cut in like 2 hours. Perfect sides and texture, but didnt look gelled but wasn't brittle or ungelled looking... I can't tell. So I put half the load in the oven at 200 degrees and couldnt get it to gel... What happened with this batch?

Don't get me wrong, all the soap is usable and once cleaned up is very nice soap, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to make sure this stuff gels and doesnt have a funny texture to the sides. (I use WSP green loaf molds.)

Thanks all.
 
I'm a newbie but very scientifically minded. I've been working on completely gelling small batches under different conditions. See my thread at http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=201313

This PDF will explain why soap gels.

http://cavemanchemistry.com/HsmgTemperature2009.pdf

This graph, taken from the PDF above, will show you how the relationships of temperature and water combine to gel or not gel. Aparently, high water soap gels at lower temps while low water soap resists gelling even at high temps.

Ri925.jpg



My recent recipes have all used 30% lye concentration. That's 2.333:1 ratio or about 23% water.

___
RBL
 
RBL - Thank you so much for that information - really interesting! Up until recently, I've used milk cartons (I now have a few nice molds!). The funny thing is, I never once had a soap that didn't fully gel - until I used a real mold! The milk cartons were cut in such a way that they lay on their sides and had a lid. Maybe that's part of it - having a lid close to the soap. And I did wrap them in towels.

My first try with my new HDPE mold produced a partial gel, even though I wrapped it in towels. The material is different, obviously, and it does not have a proper lid, though I did wrap the mold in towels. So I think that once you perfect your gel technique for your silicone molds, you'll have to rethink it anytime you use a different kind of mold. I understand that wooden molds do a great job of keeping heat in and encouraging gel.

Anyhow, I love the information about the water content and how it affects gel. Very cool and I'm sure it will help you to figure out this annoying mystery.
 
I ran into some problems like that in the beginning. Now most of my recipies are 1:2.5 lye to water and I'll add about 1 tsp of sugar per lb of oil to the water prior to adding the lye.(make sure sugar is dissolved first)
Have found that the sugar helps to make it gel completely...it will get hot!
Usually soap fairly cool, lye and water both around 90-95 degrees. Stick blend and pour at thin to medium trace into log mold. If it looks like I'm getting bubbles in the mix, I'll drop the full mold a few times about an inch from the table....
Also read where some folks use sodium lactate in the lye water to make it behave and pour smoothly.
 
I haven't done CP in quite a while but when I did I couldn't stop the soap from gelling any more than I could stop seasons from changing. Once I got the idea from this forum to try to prevent gelling and put the soap in the freezer. After a couple of hours I moved it to the refrigerator. The next time I peaked, it had started gelling.
 
I think you might want to try not putting the mold in the oven, because some of those sound like they over heated.

As you pointed out your best one was in the cooler oven, so no oven may be best.
 
finding the right combination of soaping temperatures and insulation to achieve gel without overheating. lots of things to try - towels, blankets (fleece is very insulating, especially layered), heating pads, in a cooler or insulated box, and more are all options. you also might try heating the EMPTY molds in a preheated oven (150-170 F) and pouring your batter into those.

also, as I eluded to above, soaping temps come into play - so look at the temps of your oils and lye solution - go higher, maybe, but watch out for acceleration.

and yes, if you want gel, up the water a bit.

If you choose NOT to gel, then you will need significantly more time for the saponification to complete. Sometimes several more days. And until it's done you will have a soft or crumbly soap. Leave it be. I've never been able to stop gel completely (even with fridge and all that) and end up with partial gel when I try - so I gel.

(kysoap - sodium lactate helps HP soap pour more smoothly. in CP it increases the hardness of the final bar, but that's it)
 
40% olive
30% coconut
30% lard

30mL FO or EO

36% water
8%SF

The only think that i typically change is the FO. I had a batch of honeysuckle nearly seize bc i added it too late.
 
I am getting back into soap making after taking 14 months off from making and selling soap. I was having problems with my allergies, had other health issues and was not sure I would ever back into it.

I agree with the cooler oven. I am a gel stage fan… Have to see everything gelled from corner to corner. I don’t worry about approximate temperatures anymore. I go by the feel… When the oils and water are warm to the touch, I make soap… I have been making soap for 11 years. It’s seems to work best for me. You will find what works best for you after a while.

My recipes are very simple. I use a different soap calculator other than soapcalc. I add my lye to water each time I make soap. I discount my water and supper fat between 5% to 7%.

This probably will sound like a strange way to do things, but this is what I do… I warm my electric oven to 100 degrees, turn the oven off and turn the oven light on. If it’s a gas stove, the pilot light will work just as well.

I pour my cp soap into my slab mold and let it set up a bit like a heavy, heavy trace. I cover the mold with a piece of cardboard wrapped in saran wrap. Put it in the oven with the oven light on for 24 hours at 100 degrees. Keep an eye on it while it’s gelling. If it gets too hot, open the oven door to let it cool down a bit. If your using pvc pipe molds or if you are using ingredients that are super heaters like goat’s milk, honey, certain fo’s and eo’s in slab or pvc pipe molds. Let them come to a gel first, cool down a bit, then pop them in the oven for 24 hours. I always keep an eye on the soap to make sure everything is going all right. If you are working with small cavity molds, you don’t have to worry about them as much, they don’t seem to heat up like larger molds. In the past, my recipes were all 12.5 pounds of oils.

After the soap has been in the oven for 24 hours I pop the soap in the freezer for 24 hours, or until the soap has frozen completely. I don’t grease my liners for my slab molds or pvc molds. The soap in the pvc pipe molds push through with no problems at all. I have mylar liners for my slab molds. If the soap isn’t frozen enough, when I pull the mylar off, it pulls some of the soap away with it. After I freeze the soap, it seems to give the soap a nice polished look, without having to have to actually polish it.

Here are some photos of the soaps I use to sell, that I made using this method.
 
piallo,soapbuddy and KnowWhat,

Thank you very much! Yes, I was able to get all the colors down to the bottom of the mold and on the sides. Here are a couple of photos of the bars from the same batch applejack. I would like to say that all my swirls turn out as these two batches did. You know how it goes… Sometimes they don’t… I made a batch of unscented soap, using pink kaolin clay for the swirl two weeks ago. I was daydreaming and over stirred. In the end, I had to glop it all in the mold. I tried to swirl it in. Most of the swirl stayed on top. I decided to rebatch it.

I love the colorful swirls, but the natural soaps infused with herbs and wild crafted herbs are my passion. I ended up making the brightly swirled soaps and packaging because of my customer base, which focused on the tourist industry from the lower 48.

http://www.alaskarainsoap.com/images/al ... kpeel4.jpg
http://www.alaskarainsoap.com/images/al ... kpeel3.jpg
http://www.alaskarainsoap.com/images/al ... iolet2.jpg

http://www.alaskarainsoap.com/images/al ... nt_bag.jpg
The chocolate swirl went to a heavy trace when I poured. I didn't think that this batch was going to turn out at all. To my surprise it had a nice effect.
 
Trying one more time in a barely warm oven and full water. Looks to have gelled. Your post was very helpful. We will see how this goes.

mixed at 110 degrees and poured at heavy trace. Fully gelled after only 30 mins and opened the oven a bit at 40 mins because it seems like the top is starting to get that ugly texture, but ever so slightly. Maybe it can be avoided this time.
 
This thread really helped me.

I'm new at this and have been scouring this site for answers. This post and the replies has helped me so much. I realize now what I have is a gelling issue.

Thanks to all of you for being so helpful to the original poster. As you can see, your willingness to help can have lasting effects. It's really nice to be part of this group.

Jacki
 

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