Fast saponifying advice needed!

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shunt2011

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First of all soap is saponified in about 24 hours most times. Maybe 72 if no gel is achieved. Saponification and Curing are two different things. Second, you've only been making soap for a month or so. I would not be making soap for a shower. You need a formula that's been tested long term. And hopefully you've got insurance. I don't mean to sound mean but you are asking beginner questions and therefore not ready. You are going to need 4-6 weeks cure time regardless.
 

DeeAnna

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You're confusing the chemical reaction that turns fat into soap -- saponification -- with the cure that comes after that. Saponification of even the slowest reacting fats is done in a few hours to a couple of days at most. Use the recipe you like best and just get the soap made.

edit: From Shari's comments, I gather you're a new soaper. If you are determined to do this, I'll offer this advice -- Use a recipe that you know makes good soap for bathing. Why would you want to produce soap for this event that's anything less than amazing for the guests to use? You have a reputation to create, so decide now what you want that reputation to be. If you want people to think you're a good soap maker, do not screw this up by rushing into this and making substandard soap. end edit.

The cure time is what comes AFTER saponification and that is what I'm pretty sure you're really talking about. Four weeks is on the short side, but it's a tolerable amount of time for a cure. Again, just get the soap made as soon as possible and give it as much time to cure as you can. More: https://classicbells.com/soap/cure.asp

40% water discount isn't useful terminology for describing the water content in your lye solution. The water is discounted from what? No one knows that except for you. More: https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.asp

It's better to use lye concentration or water:lye ratio for designing your recipes -- either is more useful and more accurate than "water discount" and "water as % of oils". Here's a handy table -- https://classicbells.com/soap/waterRatioConc.asp
 
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Tee

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First of all soap is saponified in about 24 hours most times. Maybe 72 if no gel is achieved. Saponification and Curing are two different things. Second, you've only been making soap for a month or so. I would not be making soap for a shower. You need a formula that's been tested long term. And hopefully you've got insurance. I don't mean to sound mean but you are asking beginner questions and therefore not ready. You are going to need 4-6 weeks cure time regardless.
Thanks for the advice/input. Im on month number 3, yes still a newbie!! And im aware that Saponification and cure times are different. From what I understand some oils saponify (not referring to CURE time) quicker than others, and thats what my question was about...the oils.
 

Tee

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You're confusing the chemical reaction that turns fat into soap -- saponification -- with the cure that comes after that. Saponification of even the slowest reacting fats is done in a few hours to a couple of days at most. Use the recipe you like best and just get the soap made.

edit: From Shari's comments, I gather you're a new soaper. If you are determined to do this, I'll offer this advice -- Use a recipe that you know makes good soap for bathing. Why would you want to produce soap for this event that's anything less than amazing for the guests to use? You have a reputation to create, so decide now what you want that reputation to be. If you want people to think you're a good soap maker, do not screw this up by rushing into this and making substandard soap. end edit.

The cure time is what comes AFTER saponification and that is what I'm pretty sure you're really talking about. Four weeks is on the short side, but it's a tolerable amount of time for a cure. Again, just get the soap made as soon as possible and give it as much time to cure as you can. More: https://classicbells.com/soap/cure.asp

40% water discount isn't useful terminology for describing the water content in your lye solution. The water is discounted from what? No one knows that except for you. More: https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.asp

It's better to use lye concentration or water:lye ratio for designing your recipes -- either is more useful and more accurate than "water discount" and "water as % of oils". Here's a handy table -- https://classicbells.com/soap/waterRatioConc.asp
Good info here! thanks! I know that cure time and saponification are different. However, I have soap that has been curing for 2 months and still tests for high PH, therefore, I assumed that the oils had not saponified. Am I wrong? I have some soap that only cured for a month and low PH so the lye is no longer present.


Im just trying to find out which oils saponify (NOT Cure) quicker. I understand I can use a bar of soap that hasn't cured but want to make sure that it has saponified (meaning that NO lye is present). I read on Lovin Soap that
Quote from blog https://www.lovinsoap.com/2016/05/saponification-versus-cure-time-in-soap-making/:

Saponification is the chemical reaction that occurs when we mix oils with a lye solution. This process usually takes about 24-48 hours to occur. During saponification the sodium hydroxide and oils are binding, doing their love dance and turning into salts of the fatty acids. Glycerin is also produced and if you superfatted (which we do), you’ll have unsaponfied oil as well.

Heat quickens saponification. If your soap goes through gel phase or if you force gel phase by adding heat, your soap finishes saponification faster.

Soap that has a high water amount, soap that is high in olive oil and other slow-saponifying oils and soap that is made with cooler temperatures might take longer to saponify.

You know that it is safe to use if you zap test it and it no longer zaps you.

For the water/lye, im using a 40/60 mix. Does that make sense?

And to add to Shunt2011, yes I will have insurance.
 

Tee

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Bottom line I just want to know if my soap will be SAFE to use in 4 weeks, not necessarily CURED.
 

amd

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However, I have soap that has been curing for 2 months and still tests for high PH, therefore, I assumed that the oils had not saponified. Am I wrong? I have some soap that only cured for a month and low PH so the lye is no longer present.
Some oils when made into soap will make a higher pH soap, the difference between your two soaps is probably a combination of the oils used to make it and time. Cure time will make soap milder. That's why it is important to use properly cured soap. pH is not a good indicator of present lye - I tested soap at 10pH once, but I also knew it was an intentionally lye heavy soap and did not pass tongue zap. I no longer bother with testing pH, but will test for tongue zap.

Bottom line I just want to know if my soap will be SAFE to use in 4 weeks, not necessarily CURED.
To answer the question, yes the soap will be safe to use in 4 weeks. Will it be good soap, maybe not. If you can't understand the benefit of a well cured soap, then I am glad that I am not a guest at this shower.

I would make melt and pour favors for this event. For my wholesale and custom orders, I won't do anything less than 6 weeks prior to gifting/sale. I don't want people to use a soap that isn't nice from the start.

Edited to correct "works" to "weeks" and "lye" to "pH".
 
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DeeAnna

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...I have soap that has been curing for 2 months and still tests for high PH, therefore, I assumed that the oils had not saponified. Am I wrong? I have some soap that only cured for a month and low PH so the lye is no longer present.
I have no idea what "high" pH is to you and what pH you think is acceptable. I also have no idea how you're testing the pH. So I'm going to assume you're like most beginning soap makers with questions like this and answer accordingly --

The pH tells you nothing about whether there is excess lye or not in your soap. For one thing, the methods most soapers use to test pH are not accurate. The pH measured by these methods is usually quite a bit lower than the pH really is if the pH test is done properly.

If a soap is properly made and the saponification reaction is finished, the soap will not have any excess lye and the pH will range from about 9 to about 11, depending on the fatty acid profile. It is entirely possible that one soap with a pH of, say, 10 might be fully saponified and skin safe while another soap with the same pH could be lye heavy. The pH of soap tells you nothing about whether the soap is skin safe or not.

The zap test is much better proof whether there is no excess lye. If you want the industry standard test, learn to do the test for free alkalinity. You cannot rely on a simple pH measurement for the proof you want.

"...Im just trying to find out which oils saponify (NOT Cure) quicker. I understand I can use a bar of soap that hasn't cured but want to make sure that it has saponified (meaning that NO lye is present). I read on Lovin Soap that..."

The author didn't intend for you to interpret her "longer to saponify" phrase nearly as far you're taking it. Longer to saponify might be a couple of days versus less than a day. She wasn't talking about weeks!

The phrase in the article "if you zap test it and it no longer zaps you" is the key. Have you zap tested your soap? What are the zap test results of the ones you don't think are saponified versus the ones you do think are done?

"...Bottom line I just want to know if my soap will be SAFE to use in 4 weeks, not necessarily CURED...."

Then do a zap test about, say, 4 days after the soap bars are cut. That will positively confirm whether your soap is fine or not. Soap should be safe to use within a few DAYS not weeks unless you've made a huge measurement error.
 

Tee

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Ahhhhhh thank you!! I use a solution phenolphthalein to test. I appreciate you taking the time to explain all of this!
 

Tee

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Some oils when made into soap will make a higher pH soap, the difference between your two soaps is probably a combination of the oils used to make it and time. Cure time will make soap milder. That's why it is important to use properly cured soap. pH is not a good indicator of present lye - I tested soap at 10pH once, but I also knew it was an intentionally lye heavy soap and did not pass tongue zap. I no longer bother with testing lye, but will test for tongue zap.



To answer the question, yes the soap will be safe to use in 4 works. Will it be good soap, maybe not. If you can't understand the benefit of a well cured soap, then I am glad that I am not a guest at this shower.

I would make melt and pour favors for this event. For my wholesale and custom orders, I won't do anything less than 6 weeks prior to gifting/sale. I don't want people to use a soap that isn't nice from the start.
Thanks for your info. That's great to know!
I see the forum doesn't seem to be short on snarky comments this morning! Thank you all for you information
 

DeeAnna

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First thing, AMD was being factual, not snarky. If I knew the soap favors had been made by a newer soaper with misconceptions and concerns like yours, I'd be leery too.

If this forum has taught me nothing else, it has taught me this -- beginning soapers often make mistakes and often assume they are more capable than they really are. I'm pointing that finger at myself as much as pointing it at you or anyone else -- everyone has been in your shoes.

I would never have agreed to make soap for a wedding when I had just a few batches under my belt. Maybe my chemical engineering background made me more aware of how very much I didn't know about soap making at that point. I'd do it today without a qualm ... but not at that early stage of my experience. Even today, I'd stick with a recipe that is tried and true, not a new untested recipe.
 
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Tee

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First thing, AMD was being factual, not snarky. If I knew the soap favors had been made by a newer soaper with misconceptions and concerns like yours, I'd be leery too.

If this forum has taught me nothing else, it has taught me this -- beginning soapers often make mistakes and often assume they are more capable than they really are. I'm pointing that finger at myself as much as pointing it at you or anyone else -- everyone has been in your shoes.

I would never have agreed to make soap for a wedding when I had just a few batches under my belt. Maybe my chemical engineering background made me more aware of how very much I didn't know about soap making at that point. I'd do it today without a qualm ... but not at that early stage of my experience.
Deanna i was not even talking about you being snarky! I just told my boyfriend you were very informative and kind! And then I get this reply from you! I didnt take you as being snarky but some comments from others
Anyway I appreciate all of your information! I have made 30 plus batches and am still learning so yes I understand the caution! Thanks and have a good day!
 
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