Did something gone wrong? Thoughts/advice please

[TruthSeeker]

right so i made my very first Soap a few days ago, and a "liquid" one at that, and i am VERY unsure of the result. (note: i intend to use this in its paste form, and not dilute it into a liquid )

the paste has turned into a consistency not unlike peanut butter. if i try the zap test it leaves a stinging fealing but more like a sharp burning sensation than a zap or jolt (a bit like getting a drop of strong habanero sause on your tungue. it's almost immediet but doesnt last as long).
I then made a gamble and tried to use the paste as soap for a quick handwash, and it does seem to work perfectly as a soap cleaning the skin, it has not even a trace of lather, bubbly or creamy, it feels more like your rubbing a tiny bit of oil on them, and looks about the same.

so id rather not reveal the exact recipe, im privat like that... but the main component is Jojoba oil, at 40% of the oils and there is about 15% pine tar in the mix aswell as 10% duckfat.

i measured and premixed the lye solution, a mix of Goats Milk and KOH90%, before measuring and mixing up all the fats, everything was measured to within about 0.2% of the the soapcalc recipe.

After mixing the oils I added the lye solution which had, at this time, thickend quit a bit. I was also unable to scrape out all of the beaker i used so the lye discount is probebly larger than i estimated, and it was calculated to have more than twice the lye discount what i see most here recomend for Liquid soap's....

after adding the lye solution, i miced it for about 2 hours using a mixmaster with a slim bowl (barly larger then the with of the mixing blades)

and now it has been standing to "mature" for about 2 days (the time it took me to have time and energy to look more into this project of mine)

and thats where i am now... and other than the paste getting a a tin layer at the top thats a bit harder and darker then whats underneath. there doesnt seem to be any change to the soap, for now.

so any thoughts and advice you can offer would be greatly Appreasiated

ps:
I do have a few questions around this soap too. like:
Should the "paste" be as viscus as it is?
Is there a way to harden it a little more, should i?
i have heard a lot about soap having a very high PH value, can i lower this in any easy way.
the scent of my soap turned out to be a lot stronger than expected (pine tar has a potent smell) is there any way to reduce its impact?

thats all ive got for now xD

Truth

 

[dixiedragon]

Not a liquid soaper here, but a picture may help.

I'm thinking the jojoba may be a problem. It's technically a wax, not an oil, so I'm not sure how much it saponifies, produces bubbles, et.c

 

[Susie]

You need to do some research on what oils soap up with which qualities. The main oils for liquid soap are coconut oil, olive oil, castor oil, rice bran oil...jojoba is WAY down the list as it is not a good lather/cleansing oil. It is also way too expensive and too full of unsaponifiables.

You are allowed to keep your recipe private...right up until you need help troubleshooting it. At that point, I will ask you to post your recipe in weights. And if you do not post it, I will stop trying to help troubleshoot it. Simply because I can't diagnose the problem without all of the information.

 

[cmzaha]

I agree with Susie, if asking for help keeping a recipe private just does not work. I would also guess the jojoba is causing a problem and the pine tar I simply do not know. I have never used it in Liquid Soap. You can be sure I will not be copying your recipe. So if you want help give us all the info. I do not even waste jojoba in bar soap let alone use 40% in LS especially since it is not an oil

 

[DeeAnna]

I agree with Susie and Carolyn. You can tell the full story and get useful help from the group ... or you can protect your privacy and solve your problems by yourself. It doesn't work both ways.

Should the "paste" be as viscus as it is?

KOH soap is a soft soap, so, yes, it is usually viscous. Since I know next to nothing about your particular soap, I can't say whether your soap paste is any different than any of the other KOH soap I've made or seen.

Is there a way to harden it a little more, should i?

KOH soap will never be hard like bar (NaOH) soap. Your previous question implies you thought it would be softer than it is. This question implies you want it firmer than it is. What texture were you expecting?

i have heard a lot about soap having a very high PH value, can i lower this in any easy way.

Soap made from an alkali (KOH or NaOH) and fat naturally has an alkaline pH. If your soap is properly made and there is no excess alkali, then you cannot lower the pH any lower than it already is if you still want the soap to remain soap.

If there is excess alkali in the soap, then you can neutralize that. But that is a problem related to your method or your recipe, not a problem of the soap itself.

the scent of my soap turned out to be a lot stronger than expected (pine tar has a potent smell) is there any way to reduce its impact?

No. Welcome to pine tar soap.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Okay, Truth Seeker, let me see if I can explain this in a way that will help us understand each other...

If this were a baking forum and you wanted to learn how to bake a cake from scratch, those of us who have been there, done that, would expect you to use something like the following ingredients:

1 cup sugar (7 ounces)
1 1⁄2 cups flour (6 3/4 ounces)
1 1⁄4 teaspoons baking powder or 3⁄8 teaspoon baking soda.
2 eggs (3 1/2 ounces)
1⁄2 cup butter (4 ounces)
1⁄2 cup milk (4 ounces)
1⁄2 teaspoon salt.

But instead you didn't use the usual ingredients for making a cake, and that's got us scratching our heads, wondering how to help you??? For example, it's like you used the following ingredients:

• 4 cups vegetable oil
• 1 cup molasses
• 1 pound of lard
• 1/2 cup milk
• 2 eggs

Some of the main ingredients are there, but key ingredients are missing. It's hard for me to even begin to explain "what gone wrong". While I appreciate your creativity and enthusiasm, I just don't know what to say about your first attempt at soap making except that it takes more than a lye calculator, KOH and some specialty oils to create a good soap.

My advice, please go to the Beginner's Forum and find the Sticky for links to learning to make soap on line. Then try a few small batches to get the hang of it. Once you have a solid foundation, then we can help you with a liquid soap that contains jojoba, pine tar, and duck fat.

BTW, I think it's best to leave the goat's milk out... here's a bit from my Notes on making Pine Tar soap: Natural scent is harsh but mellows as it cures. (If you sub goat's milk, be prepared to banish the soap to an unused room while it cures. The scent of milk and pine tar curing together can bring tears to your eyes!).
HTH (Hope This Helps)
:bunny:

 

[TruthSeeker]

A lot of good advice here, I am glad i asked
And I do realise helping me troubleshoot without the full recipe is... Well next to impossible...

Anyway, I'll leave it to cure for a few more days, and see if that helps in anyway first while I look into the oils a bit more. I looked mostly at the fatty acids content and what each of those brings to a soap, I did not look at what other contents the oils have, nor how to those affects the soap.

As for choosing oils that do not cleanse much, that was intentional done, as I am aiming towards soap that can be used by someone whose skin is extremely sensitive and has barely any natural skin oil.

I shall also admit to a failure in realising how different KOH soap is from NaOH soap, as the recipe was originally made to be a bar soap with NaOH, but simply recalculated to use KOH....

Again thanks for all the good advice, and I'll try to get a few good pictures to show of the consistency and texture of the soap as it is now, as well as posting the recipe.
(i just need to get home and have some time first xD)

With Thanks
Truth

 

[Susie]

While I understand why you thought the unsaponifiables were the answer to adding oil to the skin, it really is necessary to have the saponified oils be there to provide the basis for lather. You still need either coconut oil, palm kernel oil, or babassu oil. You will also find you need something to support those bubbles, and castor oil at 5% is awesome for that. Too much castor oil, however, leads to sticky soap.

If you have no objections to lard, it makes a wonderful soap for dry skin. As I get older, my already dry skin is rapidly losing what little oil production it already had. I am finding myself using higher and higher percentages of lard. It strips far less oil from my skin compared to most other oils (including olive oil). When I lived where there was soft water, I would increase my superfat from 5% in the summer to 8% in the winter to have it be more dry skin friendly. Now that I live where there is hard water, however, that is no longer a solution.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Right, so trying the soap again, with a more critical eye, I noticed that there seems to be a few tiny boubles in the soap paste that has some not fully saponified Lye still, though i guess/hope these will disipare after curing for more time.

As for thinking about the Unsaponifiables, I did not think about those AT ALL untill it was mentioned here. (oops?) other than what benifits/drawbacks some of the vitamins, antioxidants and minerals has on the skin....

and i did look through the sticky's on the beginers forum before i started, but found little information that i was not already aware off, and even less in reguards to Liquid soap, though i will look through them again and see read a bit more thoroughly.

lastly I have included some pictures of the soap paste as it is now (no change in consistency after curing for 2-3 days) and i appolagise in advance if its hard to see, its a very small batch and it was made in a fairly high walled bowl. and i am not experienced in taking pictures of soap xD

I also included a picture of the recipe i followed. hopefully there will be some way of salvaging the soap, possibly adding it to another soap to get it closer to how i want the soap to act and preform.

Sincerly
Truth:bunny:

 

[cmzaha]

I do want to bring out one point since you mention making this for sensitive skin. Depending on what you are calling sensitive skin you have 3 possible high allergen ingredients, the pine tar, salmon oil and kukui nut oil. Just thought I would throw that out there.

 

[shunt2011]

You've got way too much Jojoba in your recipe, it's technically a wax not an oil. You also used a 10% SF which it too high for liquid soap/paste. I wouldn't consider that a sensitive skin soap at all.

There's an excellent liquid soap post on the forum. It's long but contains so much information.

 

[DeeAnna]

I don't understand your choice of fats for this recipe. Did you choose fats with the thought that SOAP made from a particular fat has the same properties as the fat itself? If so, that's not true.

And even if this idea did work, you cannot just choose fats based on their effect on the skin without also considering their effect on the soap. Use either jojoba or pine tar, but not both. Jojoba should be used in small amounts if you're determined to use it in soap. Pine tar should be included in recipes that factor in its overall effect on the soap. Kukui and salmon oil are high in fatty acids that go rancid quite easily, so they need to be used in moderation for soap.

And I agree with the others -- a soap made for sensitive, dry skin needs to be as mild as possible with no potential triggers for irritation or allergic reaction. If the person for whom you are making this soap has not been tested for sensitivities to jojoba, salmon oil, kukui, and pine tar, I for sure would not be adding them to a soap meant for that person. You could aggravate the very problems you are trying to solve.

Some of the people responding to this thread have serious skin issues and allergies themselves and know what they are talking about, so please heed their advice.

"...I noticed that there seems to be a few tiny boubles in the soap paste that has some not fully saponified Lye..."

Was the KOH not fully dissolved in water or water-based liquid before you added it to the fats? If the KOH was fully dissolved, then the bubbles are NOT lye. They might simply be air bubbles.

 

[TruthSeeker]

hello again, great to see such quick responses.

Yes, i am trying to craft this soap for someone who has very sensitiv skin, and i would never dream of disreguarding the great advice i recieve here.
Your concerns for the alergens in the soap is noted, and appreciated, i am aware of them, and i have made sure they would not cause a problem.

hmm, DeeAnna, i did not think a soap made from a particular kind of fat would have the same properties as the fat itself, i did asume it would retain some of the properties, though the reason for the high SF is presicly because i wanted to keep some of the fats and their properties available after the soap was compleat.

the bubbles that i mentioned i mentioned because they gave a slight burning sensation when rubbed against my skin. thus the assumtion it might be partly unsaponified Lye caught in a pocket of sorts, it was only trace amounts but noticable non the less. though i have litle... no, experience whith this so its just a guess. the KOH was as far as i could tell, fully dissolved.

Lastly i was aware of this being a higly experimental and unortodox recipe. Part of that was caused by an attemt to think outside of normal convetions, a a bad habbit of mine in several cases. And partly to have an experiment that would allow me insight into a subject i knew i had barly scratched the surface off so that i could get the knowlage of what to ask and look for. Following a premade recipe that would most likly cause very few errors or unexpected results would not give the same kind of insight, or such is my belief atleast.

continuing on the choise of oils, i did indeed chose them based of their effects on skin, individualy, and while i would have loved to consider the effects of the fats on the soap, i could not actualy trach down that information, other than how each of the 5 general fatty acids used in soapmaking affect the soap. and even here most of the information i found (mostly from soap queen, bramblebarry, The Sage, and one artical from ModernSoapmaking), said not to worry about having enough of one fatty acid to get such and such lather...

im also tempted to apolegise for jumping the gun in making this soap, but i had already waited more than a year to get the Lye and did not stumble across this forum until about 10 days ago... Sorry :s
i am now reviewing some 10 of the LovingSoap articles Zany has linked to in the beginners forum. and already seeing a LOT of the information i was looking for this past year (i am actualy suprised google does not link to them when I was searching for that information, even now...)

i am still interested in knowing if and how i could potentialy salvage and use the soap paste that i have made for later though.

Thanks again for all the assistance and advice.
Truth
:snowman:

 

[Susie]

Go to this thread:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

Read from post #8 onward.

This is the recipe I use up to the point of dilution. There is a reason for it. It is awesome soap. If you are still trying to make soap for the person with sensitive skin, and you don't care if the soap is clear or not, and you are intending to leave it a paste, follow a recipe like this:

Lard 65%
Olive Oil 15%
Coconut Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%

But follow the method in the following ways:

Lye Concentration 25% (switch to Soapee.com and use 3:1 ratio)
Use half the water weight as glycerin, mix the KOH with the water, add the glycerin to the oils
Get the soap mixed to full emulsion (stays mixed by itself) or paste, cover and walk away for an hour or so. Come back and check to see if it is gelled. If it is, zap test. (we don't rub it on our skin, we touch a bit of the lather to our tongue to test for unsaponified lye).

Read the whole thread. Loads of awesome info on it.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Ah, I recognise that thread I did have already looked at the much of it before I started, though I only got about half way through I think. Mostly looking for the actual reason for using glycerin in the soap,

Also could you please give a more detailed reason for why exactly that recipe, what thoughts are behind it's creation, and so on.
Also I sadly am not able to get castor oil, and if the lard your referring to is pigs lard... That's sadly quite hard to come by too duck fat on the other hand is easy

Truth

 

[earlene]

I am curious where specifically in Northern Europe lard and castor oil are unavailable. I do not doubt you. I am just curious. Is it the cost that is prohibitive or is it something to do with importation restrictions? Whatever the reason, you can still make soap without them. There are lots of people who don't use lard in soap (or cooking either, for that matter.) And even though castor oil (often found in the laxative section of pharmacies in small bottles) is commonly used in many soap recipes, it's still not required.

Given the current state of affairs here in the US, I would not be surprised to see the cost of Castor Oil go up because we depend so heavily on India for our Castor oil. Maybe some farmers will convert from corn and soy over to castor. But given the huge cuts to subsidies given to farmers, it's probably too late already. Living in a farming community, the outlook is grim from where I sit.

 

[Susie]

Glycerin is used to both speed trace and it makes a much thicker (diluted) soap. Just gives a phenomenal product.

I have not ever made soap with duck fat. It does not look all that different in the fatty acid profile from lard. Try it.

I make IrishLass' recipe for my handsoap. It makes lovely soap that does not dry out my hands. I do carry soap paste of the recipe I gave you in a tube to use when at work or out in public as I am allergic to most commercial soaps.

 

[TruthSeeker]

To Earlene, it's curious of you to mention, neither would be impossible for me to get as there are no import restrictions to either, it's just that neither has been traditionally much used here, and so no stores actually carry those items (well you find lard in a few shoe creams for leather boots, but they have been mixed with more ingredients...) it would be possible to import them from abroad but then with shipping costs and vat added the price skyrockets, (because we have to pay vat for the shipping price too... Grrrr)

To Susie, I will definitely try it and I'll probably use much of your other advice to craft more spesialist soaps later using IrishLass's and you're recipes as a reference point.
But a last question, you use this as a hand soap, but how would it work as a full body/showering soap, as that's the usage are I'm aiming for.

Sad to hear that you're allergic to most commercial soaps, though with all the chemicals in them I'm not that surprised, glad me or my friend does not suffer from allergies, though she suffers from extreme atopical exema caused by her skin not producing much of the oils that are ment to protect it. And I suffer from a hypersensitiv nervous system ( why I could feel some tiny remnants of lye in the soap on my skin even though it passed my zap test... Then again it could have been a an air bubble causing a sudden temperature difference to what I'd imagined traces of lye would feel like. ..)

Truth :bunny:

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

You can also use tallow instead of lard. It's not exactly the same, but similar.

Or from here https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/webapp...tps:gb/groceries/sainsburys-lard--basics-250g

 

[IrishLass]

If it helps, forum member MySoapyHeart hails from northern Europe and she posted a list of where she gets her soaping supplies: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58479&highlight=supplies+Norway

But a last question, you use this as a hand soap, but how would it work as a full body/showering soap, as that's the usage are I'm aiming for.

As with Susie, I use it exclusively as a hand soap, too, but I have tested it out in the shower to see how it performed as an all-over body wash, and although it got me clean without drying me out, it didn't produce the copious amounts of quick-lathering bubbles that I appreciate so much in an all-over shower/bathing soap.

One thing about me- I'm very picky about my lather in my shower/bathing soaps. Basically, I love showering with soaps that give me lots of readily, bubbly/creamy lather without a lot of effort. With the liquid soap in question, I found that I had to use much more of it in the shower than I wanted to in order to get results that were even close to being comparable to how my bar soaps perform (lather-wise) in the shower.

If one is not as super picky about their lather as I am , it might work fine for them as a shower soap, but if I were personally ever to choose to regularly use it as a shower soap, I would definitely need to make it in much bigger quantities than I do my bar soap, because I would go through it much, much faster, guaranteed.

I love it as a hand soap, though.


IrishLass