Devious by Nurture Soaps

[madde hughes]

I used Devious in Brambleberry's Pink and Gold CP Soap Project, and everything was going just fine until I added the "Devious' FO from Nurture Soap. It has Vanillin in it. As soon as I added it, my oil and lye mixture seized in the time it took me to set down the fragrance oil bottle and pick up my stick blender. I really love the FO though and I want to accomplish making the bar with the FO. Any suggestions?
Also I just wanted to put it out there and let others know so they don't lose a 5 pound batch of soap like I did. I ended up having to shred the soap into little pieces and I am going to try to put it into something else.

 

[dibbles]

I don't know how long you have been soaping and I also don't know what is in the BB project you mentioned. What were your temps? What is the lye concentration? What was the recipe? Were you at trace when you added the FO? Did you stick blend continuously to get to trace?

Vanillin shouldn't cause acceleration, but that FO has some floral notes which often do. The soaping notes on the Nurture site say slight acceleration and discoloration to tan. To combat acceleration, I will blend the naughty FO with a well behaved one.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

As soon as I added it, my oil and lye mixture seized

TIP: When that happens, just leave the SB or spoon in the batch and walk away for 5 minutes. (I set the timer). When you return, the batch will be going into gel. It is then easy to stir by hand, for one full minute to make sure it's thoroughly mixed, and pour into your mold.

just wanted to put it out there and let others know

Good to know. Thanks for sharing.

so they don't lose a 5 pound batch of soap like I did.

Please read: ADVICE TO NEWBIES

I ended up having to shred the soap into little pieces and I am going to try to put it into something else.

Use the SEARCH feature in the upper right corner of this page to find "confetti soap" or "ciaglia method" for ideas and advice.

 

[madde hughes]

I don't know how long you have been soaping and I also don't know what is in the BB project you mentioned. What were your temps? What is the lye concentration? What was the recipe? Were you at trace when you added the FO? Did you stick blend continuously to get to trace?

Vanillin shouldn't cause acceleration, but that FO has some floral notes which often do. The soaping notes on the Nurture site say slight acceleration and discoloration to tan. To combat acceleration, I will blend the naughty FO with a well behaved one.

This was the recipe for the Pink Salt and Gold CP soap project I did:

• 1.8 oz. Cocoa Butter (5%)
• 11.6 oz. Coconut Oil (33%)
• 3.2 oz. Avocado Oil (9.1%)
• 11.6 oz. Palm Oil (33%)
• 7 oz. Rice Bran Oil (19.9%)
• 5 oz. Sodium Hydroxide Lye
• 10 oz. Distilled Water (13% water discount)
• 1.75 oz. Rose Quartz Fragrance Oil
• Titanium Dioxide
• Magenta Mica
• Gold Sparkle Mica
• Pink Sea Salt, Medium

My temps were between 90-100 with less than a 10 degree difference when I mixed my oils with my lye solution. I had to mix in my pre-prepared titanium dioxide mixture into the oils before mixing in the lye solution with it. When I stick blended to mix the lye and oil solution, I stopped at a very thin thin trace because I had to separate the mixture into 2 seperate containers for coloring. I poured them into the two containers and then added my pre-prepared pink colorant to 1 of the containers and whisked it to mix in the colorant. The mixture was light trace at this point. The pink was not the desired color, so then I added a little more of my colorant mixture and whisked again. Still both containers at this point are at a light trace. Then I grab my fragrance oil. I pour a proportionate amount into each of the two containers, set down the glass cup my oil was in, pick up my stick blender (because the recipe states if the mixtures were still at a light trace, which mine were, to stick blend to a medium trace) and go to put it in my container which had the pink mixture and the mixture has already seized. It was extremely hard. Therefore I go to check to check the other and it was even harder. All this within 10-15 seconds of me adding the FO.
I ended up just letting it harden overnight in the bowl and then I just shredded it into small pieces to use in another soap. Didn’t know what else to do with it. I didn’t want to rematch it.

I have been making soap since December 2022. So still fairly new at it. I make at least 2 batches per weekend. Sometimes a few more. This has never happened to me. Things have come to trace faster than I expected but NEVER have I added an FO and within the small amount of time it took me to set down the cup and pick up the blender has anything been seized and pretty hard. So I didn’t know if this was a common occurrence for people or if anyone had any tips of tricks to try. Or advice.
Thanks for the reply.
Also if you want to read the recipe on BB, I’ll put the link below. I followed it to a T, except for the FO they used. I used Devious like stated above.
https://www.brambleberry.com/articl...salt-and-gold-cold-process-soap/PS000080.html

 

[artemis]

So I didn’t know if this was a common occurrence for people....

Common in that it happens to everyone at least once. Common enough that we learn to read all the reviews before buying a fragrance.

 

[artemis]

Also, 5 pounds? Why such a big batch? Best to try a new FO on a very small batch, like 1 pound.

I am a hobby soaper and only make soap for my household and friends. I prefer making such small loaves all the time because I can try more things without filling my house with soap.

 

[dibbles]

The BB recipe notes do say the larger amount of TD and water discount can lead to acceleration. It doesn't seem like this or anything else about the recipe would cause the seizing you describe though.

I think that the Rose Quartz FO is one that can actually slow trace (going from memory and not sure about this), and Nurture lists the Devious as having some acceleration, that could be some of the problem. According to BB this recipe will make 3 pounds of soap and you mentioned making 5 pounds. If your changed the batch size, it's possible a mistake was made somewhere there . It does sound like this is a FO issue for the most part. The reviews I read are positive and don't mention seizing, but NS does note some amount of acceleration in their testing recipe. The recipe you used is likely one that moves faster than the test recipe, but I haven't compared the two.

One other thing - this FO discolors and maybe more than the TD can correct. Your pretty pink and white soap might not be what you imagined. Another reason to make a small test batch.

 

[madde hughes]

The BB recipe notes do say the larger amount of TD and water discount can lead to acceleration. It doesn't seem like this or anything else about the recipe would cause the seizing you describe though.

I think that the Rose Quartz FO is one that can actually slow trace (going from memory and not sure about this), and Nurture lists the Devious as having some acceleration, that could be some of the problem. According to BB this recipe will make 3 pounds of soap and you mentioned making 5 pounds. If your changed the batch size, it's possible a mistake was made somewhere there . It does sound like this is a FO issue for the most part. The reviews I read are positive and don't mention seizing, but NS does note some amount of acceleration in their testing recipe. The recipe you used is likely one that moves faster than the test recipe, but I haven't compared the two.

One other thing - this FO discolors and maybe more than the TD can correct. Your pretty pink and white soap might not be what you imagined. Another reason to make a small test batch.

I misspoke and said 5 pounds but I meant 3. I did everything in the recipe to a T. At least as far as I know. Maybe I made a misstep and did not realize I did, totally possible.

I used the Rose Quartz FO in another recipe recently and it did not accelerate trace, like you said, it seemed to almost slow it a bit. However, I wanted to use the Devious FO and that’s the only thing I changed in the recipe. I did not find any discoloration in the soap even though it seized. I can post some pictures this evening or the white. It came out a pretty white but it seized so I just cut it into chunks and shredded some of it once it finished hardening.

Since there recipes mentions the water discount do you think it would be a good idea to add more water in the future when I try to make it again? I really want to make it again and make it with the Devious FO again.
Like I said, I’m a pretty novice soap maker. Smaller batches is probably a better idea, but how do I go about taking a recipe I find and making the recipe into a smaller batch? I’m sorry if that’s a silly question, I’m still learning.

Thanks for your comment

 

[basti]

Smaller batches is probably a better idea, but how do I go about taking a recipe I find and making the recipe into a smaller batch? I’m sorry if that’s a silly question, I’m still learning.

Have you used a lye calculator before? I use soapcalc, personally, but there are others that may look less daunting to a beginner. (There are guides published to help explain how to use them, which I recommend reading or watching)

If you notice on the BB recipe above, they provide percentages after the oil. You can plug these percentages into the soap calculator and it will give you the proper amount of oil, water, and lye to use for any size batch.

For example, I plugged the above percentages into soapcalc but modified the batch size to a more reasonable 16 oz and got the following:

 

[A-Polly]

Yes, to what basti said! You could divide all the amounts in your recipe by half or whatever fraction, but it is so much better to use a lye calculator. There are many, many resources on the internet; one of my favorites is Elly Emmett, who has a website and a YouTube channel for soapmaking and also for whole-grain sourdough baking. This article "Choosing oils for soap making" includes a video, plus a link to her very thorough video on how to use SoapCalc. Scroll down to the very end of the article to find links to the incredibly informative Classic Bells Soapy Stuff website (by chemistry pro DeeAnna on this very forum!), Modern Soapmaking, the Lovin Soap Studio, and more — all really great resources for learning.
https://www.ellyseveryday.com/choosing-oils-for-soap-makingGood luck with Devious and your next batch! I once made that Pink Salt and Gold CP project with a very strongly scented, unrefined cocoa butter, and the hint of chocolate along with the Rose Quartz FO was mesmerizing!

 

[artemis]

I really want to make it again and make it with the Devious FO again.

When you have a misbehaving FO that you love, you just need to figure out how to use it to your advantage. An accelerating FO is very helpful in making layers. Divide and color your batter, add the FO to just your base color and quickly mix, pour, and bang the bubbles out of it. Then, repeat with the other colors.

I think some people would only use such an FO in HP so that saponification has already happened.

 

[dibbles]

No question is silly, so don’t ever be afraid to ask. If you don’t yet know how to use a lye calculator, you should take the time to learn. Every recipe, even those published by a trusted source like Bramble Berry, should be run through a lye calculator.

I started this answer and was interrupted. Since @basti answered, I will move on to using the fragrance. You could try using more water, but I don’t know that it will make much difference. You can try gently warming the FO, also might not be much help. Do you have any well behaved fragrance or essential oils to blend with it? Orange EO is a great at slowing trace. @KiwiMoose recently posted that she does this frequently, and because orange EO is so quick to fade it doesn’t affect the final soap fragrance. If you are set on trying this FO again, make a small batch If you are going to try the same recipe. Alternately, use a different recipe that will move more slowly. I recommend lard if you aren’t opposed to using animal fats. It makes lovely soap and traces super slow.

 

[KiwiMoose]

FYI - I have used a Rose Quartz FO in the past ( not sure of supplier) and vowed I would never use it again due to severe ricing and moderate acceleration

 

[madde hughes]

No question is silly, so don’t ever be afraid to ask. If you don’t yet know how to use a lye calculator, you should take the time to learn. Every recipe, even those published by a trusted source like Bramble Berry, should be run through a lye calculator.

I started this answer and was interrupted. Since @basti answered, I will move on to using the fragrance. You could try using more water, but I don’t know that it will make much difference. You can try gently warming the FO, also might not be much help. Do you have any well behaved fragrance or essential oils to blend with it? Orange EO is a great at slowing trace. @KiwiMoose recently posted that she does this frequently, and because orange EO is so quick to fade it doesn’t affect the final soap fragrance. If you are set on trying this FO again, make a small batch If you are going to try the same recipe. Alternately, use a different recipe that will move more slowly. I recommend lard if you aren’t opposed to using animal fats. It makes lovely soap and traces super slow.

@dibbles I have decided I am taking this weekend not to make soap, but to learn more about the soap calculator. I definitely agree after all the comments that it is a must needed step I need if I am going to continue making soap and want to make it successfully.
Unfortunately I am stubborn and am set on trying to the Devious FO again because I want to know that I am capable of using it in this recipe and it not seizing. I want to accomplish completing the project. So I am also thinking a smaller batch is definitely the way to go. I like the advice you have from @KiwiMoose about adding some Orange EO to it.
None of the other FO and EO I have had cause such an abrupt seize or even acceleration quite to that magnitude. I have used some that have accelerated but not quite in the same way.

@A-Polly thank you for all the great resources! I have read some of The Soap Lovin stuff. But the other ones I haven’t so I will be checking those out for sure!

@KiwiMoose the Rose Quartz FO from BB I used in their Rose Quartz CP soap project and it came out so beautiful. I didn’t have that same issue with their FO.

 

[dibbles]

@madde hughes This sounds like a good plan. Using a lye calculator is important on so many levels, and a skill well worth the time to learn. It isn’t difficult.

Try the Devious FO again. If you are able to recognize a stable emulsion, stop blending there. Especially with a small batch, use the stick blender in short bursts (2-5 seconds) and stir for awhile with the stick blender or a spatula In between. Color, then stir in the FO and pour Into the mold. I would just do a single color batch or leave uncolored to see how much time you actually can expect to have when working with this one.

I understand wanting to use this FO, and I hope you find something that work. There are a couple of fragrances that I love but have just had to accept aren’t for CP. I don’t make HP soap, but that might be an option for you as well.

 

[The_Phoenix]

I’ve soaped with NS’s Devious. I recall slight acceleration. Have not soaped with it since (only because I used it for a batch for my mom who no longer likes the scent ). My advice would be to soap at room temperature, sick blend to emulsion, hand stir the FO in with a spatula to very light trace.

 

[lucycat]

If I have never used a fragrance than I always make the soap assuming fragrance acceleration. That means I whisk in the fragrance oil while pouring it in a thin stream at a good emulsion. I want the whisk to incorporate the fragrance as soon as it hits the batter. If it did accelerate I continue whisking until the batter is at trace to pour. If a fragrance rices then I find it is just a lot worse if the fragrance has been setting on top of the soap batter, even that short amount of time of "setting down the bottle and picking up the stick blender". Granted, plenty of fragrances are no problem and this isn't needed and I may SB again after to get a medium trace. Still, It is an easy way to be prepared and prevent some of the worst acceleration problems.