DeeAnna's Milk in Soap Information

Discussion in 'Lye-Based Soap Forum' started by Phlier, Mar 15, 2019.

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  1. Mar 15, 2019 #1

    Phlier

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    Heya everyone,

    Recently, I came across information on how to use milk in soap making that was written by @DeeAnna . It was great stuff, including information on how to figure out how much lye to add, etc.

    But alas... amongst my 100+ open browser tabs, I can no longer find it. I thought I'd book marked it, but noooooo... that would be too easy. And my Google-Fu has failed me as well.

    Along the way of trying to find DeeAnna's article, I stumbled across other pieces about using milk in soap, and how not to scorch it, etc, but no one had included the information in DeeAnna's article.

    I'm planning on using milk (and whey) in a shaving soap. Yes, I've read the shaving soap mega thread from post one all the way to the end. It took me two weeks.

    Since this is going to be hot processed at the temperatures required for stearic acid, I don't think there's going to be a way around scorching it, so I'm not really concerned about that. I'm more interested in figuring out the correct saponification numbers for the particular milk product(s) I use. I know that some soap calcs include limited dairy information... I need more than this, I need a way to figure it out for myself, as the numbers in the calc aren't inclusive enough.

    Anyone happen to have a link to that ever elusive article for me?

    Thank you so much!
     
  2. Mar 15, 2019 #2

    Steve85569

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  3. Mar 15, 2019 #3

    Phlier

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    Yeah, I love that page, but sadly the link to her milk information isn't there. :(

    Found it! For anyone needing to determine saponification values from nutrition labels, including those on dairy products, it's right here.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2019
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  4. Mar 16, 2019 #4

    SoaperForLife

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    I am baffled as to why you would want to include milk in your shaving soap? If it scorches (especially) it will probably always smell bad...
     
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  5. Mar 16, 2019 #5

    Ladka

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    Yes, why include scorched milk in soap?
     
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  6. Mar 23, 2019 #6

    Phlier

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    @SoaperForLife @Ladka This is one of those "you'd have to try it to believe it" situations.

    The majority of the most popular shaving soap artisans are now using at least one type of milk. Some artisans are using multiple milks.

    The face feel during the shave with a milk soap is exceeded only by the face feel *after* the shave.

    And no, they don't stink. :)

    I made my first batch with whole milk two days ago. It was hot processed (as most shaving soaps are due to the high stearic content), and I added the milk after saponification was complete (zap test passed). I let the soap cool down quite a bit, added the milk, and stick blended like crazy. The soap turned out fantastic.

    As mentioned, no stink at all.

    Wholly Kaw, Barrister & Mann, Grooming Dept are just three I can think of off the top of my head that use various milks. Wholly Kaw uses Water Buffalo and Donkey milk. It's one of the best shave soaps on the market right now.

    I must admit, I was rather surprised by your rather pointed negative replies. Hope this clears it up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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  7. Mar 23, 2019 #7

    Alfa_Lazcares

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    I still dont understand why the scorched milk?
     
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  8. Mar 23, 2019 #8

    Ladka

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    From your initial post I understood you knew milk would get scorched. In your last post you explain you only add milk after cooling the batter.
     
  9. Mar 24, 2019 #9

    Phlier

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    After further research, I found out that some guys were doing it as I described in my most recent post.

    It’s not easy to time, though, as the melting point for the stearic is so high.

    I’m sorry you still don’t understand. I explained it as well as I could. Guess you’ll just have to stay confused.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2019
  10. Mar 24, 2019 #10

    Ladka

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    It’s not easy to time, though, as the melting point for the stearic is so high.

    Does the temperature of milk have to be the same as that of the batter or you use lower temp milk?
     
  11. Mar 24, 2019 #11

    SoaperForLife

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    I stand by my belief that most, if not all, benefits that milk brings to the table are more perceived than in actuality as most milk is over 80 percent water with only a small (less than 4 in most cases) percentage of fat which can be easily be duplicated by upping the super fat of a recipe. Someday I would like to set up a table at a craft show with two bars of soap - one made with goat's milk and one without and see if anyone can actually tell the difference between the two.... bet no one will be able to.
     
  12. Mar 24, 2019 #12

    earlene

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    Although you may be correct, SoaperForLife, I believe that if someone feels that their milk soap feels fabulous on their skin, that's all that matters for them. I do know a soaper who did just such a blind test among her friends and there actually was one person among 5 who could tell the difference, so although most did not know the difference there still was that one who did. Was it a fluke or did they really feel something different? Why wouldn't one in 5 have enough sensitivity to tell the difference? We have learned here on this site that some people can't smell lard, while others can far into the life of a bar of soap made with lard. Not everyone is the same.

    As an aside, I'd like to point out that the power of the mind and the power of belief is a beautiful and sometimes remarkable thing. It has brought about unexpected healing in some medical cases (healing occurring against all scientific knowledge). As a nurse, I have seen this happen; in fact as a mother I have seen this happen in my own child. Now this is not about soap and it's not about milk, but it is about the power of the mind to reap a perceived benefit against all evidence.

    To Philer, it sounds like you found the perfect solution to keep the milk from scorching and I want to thank you for including that link to DeeAnna's write-up on using milks in soap. It is a great resource and I am glad you were able to find it again.
     
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  13. Mar 24, 2019 #13

    SoaperForLife

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    Yes, that is true and the same can be said for any maker with any product that they make. It is mostly definitely a marketing advantage.
     
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  14. Mar 25, 2019 #14

    Phlier

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    There is a very large difference between using a soap to clean a body part with versus using it to help drag a razor sharp blade down the sensitive face skin. And these artisans DID NOT become popular BECAUSE THEY USED MILK, they became popular BECAUSE OF THE PERFORMANCE of their soaps. When other artisans were trying to figure out why the performance of the soaps were so good, the one major difference stood out: they used milk.

    The majority of face shavers don't care two hoots about what is in a shave soap, they care how well it works.

    Soap makers always focus on fats. There is something else in milk besides water and fat: protein. IMO (an opinion garnered through much trial and error), it is primarily the protein in milk that boosts milk shave soap performance.

    I must say that I'm a bit let down by the pointed negativity and closed minded-ness in this thread..."milk doesn't matter", "it's all marketing", "why the scorched milk" etc.

    I guess it is to be expected, though, as the reason I am making soap is far different than the reason the majority of you are, and there is no common frame of reference. As I said, using a milk soap to wash with is an entirely different universe than using it for face shaving.

    Unfortunately, face shaving cannot be compared to leg shaving. Face skin is extremely soft and sensitive. Now grow pubic hair out of it. If men could safely use motor oil (the ultimate in lubrication) to shave with, we would. This is why shave soaps are so harshly judged; we need the lube. She/he who produces the soap that provides the greatest lubrication, lather, and post shave skin feel (all of this summarized by the word "performance") wins, regardless of what it is made out of. We don't care if it has donkey milk or bat urine in it, as long as it works. So no, I'm afraid your marketing opinion holds no water.

    If you don't think a man can tell the difference in lubrication that two different soaps provide, you are sorely (pun intended) mistaken. Lubrication is the primary reason men use shaving soaps and creams in the first place. We would just shave dry if we didn't need lubrication to keep the shaving experience from being very painful. And yes, we are very, very, VERY good at determining how well a shave soap provides that all-important lube. We are also very good at determining how the face feels afterward. Dry? Tight? Soft? Greasy? Oily? And how about the lather? Light airy and foamy? Dense? Yogurt-y? Sour Cream-y? While lather and post shave face feel are important, it's the lube that matters the most. Shave soap users are much more intensely involved with -and hence much more critical of- the soap's performance than someone that's just washing a body part. We are counting on that soap to reduce the pain induced by shaving to an acceptable level. We are using it to prevent cuts, nicks, weepers. We are using it in an attempt to comfortably get our facial hair down to the point that it cannot be felt by the hands of those we are close to. We are using it to look clean cut and well groomed. We are counting on it to help us not have red, irritated skin caused by the shaving process. We don't care what is in it (as long as it's safe, both for us and this world), we only care about how well it works regarding all of these issues.

    Words can only take us part of the way there; if you don't shave thick shafted hair off of your face, you will never truly understand.

    I apologize for sounding so negative. Guess it's getting contagious.
    I warmed mine up to 120F first, and will go warmer next time. The batter started to seize up as the milk was added. I ended up having to add it very slowly.

    You may not want to bother with the added hassle and expense, though, as apparently there is no real performance difference; it's just marketing fluff.:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
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  15. Mar 26, 2019 #15

    Ladka

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    I warmed mine up to 120F first, and will go warmer next time. The batter started to seize up as the milk was added. I ended up having to add it very slowly.

    You may not want to bother with the added hassle and expense, though, as apparently there is no real performance difference; it's just marketing fluff.:rolleyes:

    Thank you for the info on the temperature. This will help a lot when I start experimenting with goat milk. I have easy access to it, I consume it regularly and have been meditating on using it in soap.
    BTW, I reacted to scorched milk referring to your first post and I never mentioned any marketing ideas. Your last remark is misplaced.

     
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  16. Mar 26, 2019 #16

    Phlier

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    We will account that to language differences... That remark was aimed toward those who did make such references, not you.
     
  17. Mar 26, 2019 #17

    earlene

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    As a woman who uses a razor on my legs and underarms, I agree that glide and lubrications are really desirable when shaving. I can definitely get a nice smooth non-bleeding shave with the right soap. I agree that a good shaving soap is really necessary. I know that many men prefer not to use the same razor a woman has used for her legs, and that's fine, but if I get cuts because I didn't use a good shaving soap, either on my shins or under my arms, then it's a real pain and can be quite uncomfortable. It's not all about the shaver, either. A smooth shave in those sensitive areas really does make a huge difference in long term comfort. I do get what you mean, even though I don't shave my face.
     
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  18. Mar 27, 2019 #18

    Phlier

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    I'm going to pull the curtain of "Things Women Don't Know About Men's Grooming" back an inch, and give you a peek. At least, in regards to shaving. For this discussion, we'll be talking about guys that use a typical cartridge shaver, like a Mach 3, Fusion, etc. You know the ones... little cartridges that hold multiple blades, meant to be used with shaving cream or shave soap. We will talk about pain levels, both for the shaver, as well as his significant other's pain level if his SO happens to put his/her face against the shaver's face. We will assume that a man will stop the process once he reaches a pain level of 5.

    We are going to talk about the "Three Pass" shave.

    Pass 1: With the Grain (often abbreviated as "WTG")
    Pain levels:
    Dry: 10
    With mass market creams/soaps: 1 - 4
    With the finest upper tier artisan creams/soaps: 0

    The vast majority of men do a one pass, with the grain shave. If his significant other were to rub their cheek against the shaver's cheek, they would most likely flinch, say "ow!", and retract quickly. The SO's face would be left feeling and looking as if it had been rubbed with sand paper.

    Pass 2: Across the Grain (often abbreviated as "XTG") This pass, as the name suggests, is at a 90 degree angle to the direction of the hair's growth. This pass will result in much shorter stubble afterward than the first pass.
    Pain Levels:
    Dry: Much too painful to ever attempt, so NA
    With mass market creams/soaps: 5 - 10
    With the finest upper tier artisan creams/soaps: 0 - 4

    Some men throw this extra step in, if they are using a shaving soap/cream that lowers the pain to a level that is acceptable for them. Mass market soaps and creams do not apply here, as they simply do not provide enough lubrication to pull this pass off at an acceptable pain level. If the shaver's SO were to rub their cheek against the shavers, they would definitely feel it, and it wouldn't be comfortable. The SO's face would look red and irritated.

    Pass 3: Against the Grain (often abbreviated as "ATG") Again as the name suggests, the shaver shaves against the hair growth direction. ON THE FACE this is normally *extremely painful*. It's also what the majority of leg shavers do, and it isn't painful on the legs or other body parts like it is on the face. This pass truly separates the Men from the Boys, as without the proper products, it simply can't be done at a pain level that most guys will accept.
    Pain Levels:
    Dry: Not even the manliest of men would ever consider shaving their face against the grain dry.
    With mass market creams/soaps: 7 - 10 (remember that 5 is the cutoff for the majority of guys)
    With the finest of artisan soaps/creams: 0 - 6

    This is the extra mile pass, and what us wet shavers really like to achieve. Shaving against the grain will result in skin that is completely free of stubble. If the shaver's SO were to rub their cheek on the shaver's cheek, there would be zero detectable stubble. At all. It would be as though the shaver had never grown facial hair. The ATG pass is never attempted first. For some reason, doing the WTG and XTG passes first make the last ATG pass much less painful. So guys that shave ATG will first do the WTG and XTG passes prior. Yeah, face shaving really is THAT painful.

    It is at this final level that shaving creams/soaps (I'm going to limit this to soaps from here on out) are really judged, as it is only the very finest shaving soaps that are capable of providing enough lubrication to allow a guy to shave his face against the grain. Shavers are constantly on the lookout for a soap that will further reduce the pain level involved in face shaving. Just because a guy does shave against the grain doesn't mean it doesn't hurt; most of us shave against the grain up to a pain level of four.

    Guys that really want to go the extra mile will use an old fashioned double edged safety razor or even a straight razor for face shaving. These razor types are capable of shaving the hair off even closer than the cartridge blades of today. This extends how long the BBS (Baby Butt Smooth) shave will last. If I shave to a BBS level with a cartridge razor, it will last for about six hours. With a double edge safety razor, it'll last about 8 hours, and a straight razor extends it to 12 hours. Shaving with a double edge safety razor (or straight razor) along with a brush and soap or cream is referred to as "traditional wet shaving."

    Traditional wet shaving has seen a very large revival over the last decade. More and more men are seeing just how much better (and less painful) a traditional wet shave can be. Especially if the proper equipment (razor, blade, brush, and soap) are used. The soap is especially important, as even if a guy is using a bad razor with a terrible blade, he'll get a much more comfortable shave with a great soap than he would otherwise.

    Using the best of the currently available artisan soaps, I can get the pain level down to the zero to one level. With mass market canned shaving cream, and the majority of soaps marketed as "shaving soap", I can not even perform an ATG pass, as it is just too painful.

    I can further break down the artisan soaps according to ingredients vs pain level experienced during the ATG pass:

    Pain Level: 0 - 1. These artisans are using high stearic acid soaps that include tallow and various milks

    Pain Level: 1-3 These artisans are using high stearic acid soaps that include tallow

    Pain Level: 4 - 6 These artisans are using high stearic acid and a variety of other ingredients.

    The only artisans that have produced soap(s) that are actually able to give me a completely painless and blood free shave have been the ones that have included various milks. Did I look at the ingredients prior to making the purchase? No. I went by the reviews of other shavers saying that they, too, had had pain free, bloodless shaves using those soaps. The fact that they used milk wasn't brought up until the question was asked as to what these artisans were doing differently than others to be able to produce a product capable of *completely* removing the pain of the ATG pass.

    In spite of the fact that men try to be all tough and manly, we are still extremely good at detecting pain. And the pain level between artisans that are using high stearic acid, tallow, and milk in their soaps and artisans that aren't is enough for me to cough up quite a bit more money for the more expensive milk soaps. I'm cheap; most men are. I would much rather buy a less expensive soap, but not if it means adding pain to a daily grooming ritual.

    IMO, the usage of milk in a high quality shaving soap is just as important as the high stearic acid and tallow. Apparently, I'm not alone in this opinion, as the artisans that produce these soaps simply cannot keep them in stock. It wouldn't matter if it was tree fungus that produced this remarkable increase in the lubrication properties (and hence a lower pain level) of shave soap, either; with shaving soap, the ingredients do not matter. Only pain matters.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
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  19. Mar 27, 2019 #19

    Phlier

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    So why the dissertation on men's shaving? I'm hoping that when guys come to this forum looking for help in improving their shaving soap recipes, participants here can offer help with an understanding of what they are trying to accomplish with their soap recipes. The responses I have received so far in this thread made me realize that shaving soap makers have very little in common with the majority of the soap creators on this forum.

    I'm trying to save some money by making my own shave soap that performs at a level of the top artisans. Yes, that's asking a lot, but since my whole family enjoys making soap now, it's something that we can all do together. Even my current recipe is better than all but the top level of shave soap artisans. And my wife is making a bath soap based on my shave soap recipe that the entire family enjoys. She uses a BBW knock off scent for the bars she makes for her and our daughter, and a bay rum scent for the guys in the house.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
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  20. Mar 27, 2019 #20

    penelopejane

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    DH gets eczema every time he shaves.
    He now uses an electric razor that leaves the fashionable stubble look and gets no eczema. I wonder if a good shaving soap will help? He’s tried just about every commercial one available.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019

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