Deanna, I have a question...

[newbie]

But why no zap on day one? The lye hasn't had a chance, before unmolding, to react with the air much or any more than an ungelled bar does, at least in a silicone mold, I would think. Wood might breathe more but would that much water be moving and that much lye reacting that there is no zap with this bar, but there is with an ungelled bar? The dilution factor may be part of it, but is it really so dilute that your tongue can't pick up zap from a 40% lye heavy bar?

 

[engblom]

I made a 70% olive oil, 30% laurel berry oil soap in a slightly similar way yesterday. I put 80% of the oils weight with water and -20% SF.

I got it to a nice tick trace and thought it will succeed without any leaking. But no, after it has been reaching some kind of gelling it was leaking a lot of fluid. The whole soap behaved identically to how soap is behaving when salting out. The water was saturated with something and regardless of how I tried with stick blender to mix it back in, it was impossible.

The stick blender was not even getting dirty. It was clean each time I took it up as nothing was happening. I had the crude soap floating on the surface and the impuritites in the water (now brown in color). It was a total separation because some kind of saturation. My pH papers do not get higher than 11, and it showed the highest pH for the fluid.

As I anyway planned to salt out later, I added a lot of water to see what would happen once it is not saturated anymore. Now with more water I could mix it to an even batter. No separation took place anymore after I added the water. The stick blender now got dirty too.

What was saturating the water, I really wonder?

 

[AnnaMarie]

There is a separation when this gets close to trace for me. It looks like it's ricing and there are little blobs of soap floating in lye liquid. Eventually, it comes together. Something different is happening as opposed to "normal" soap. I wonder if the olive oil is so saturated with water and lye that this is the reaction. Maybe the trick is to create the right circumstances for a sort of emulsion to take place, holding the water in??? I've been googling what happens to lye as you add more water as well. If the olive oil has already been saturated with lye and there's extra water and lye then what is that doing? I'm just rambling here...

 

[FlybyStardancer]

Okay, currently making a scaled down version of this Castile with milk powder and honey. I added the powder and honey to the water that matched the oils, heated it up slightly to get it to mix together, then added it to the oils and emulsified everything together before adding the lye water. Took awhile to thicken up, but the emulsion hasn't broken, and over 40 min later I'm still waiting for it to rice, and it's pretty thick. I'm probably going to do my colors soon and mold it if something doesn't change in the next couple of minutes.

ETA: Literally less than a minute after I posted this it rices, and badly. lol My stick blender barely got through the process of getting it back together and smooth! More info when I can post my pic.

Okay, here's more info. I tweaked values in SoapCalc until it matched the original recipe, and then scaled it down to 531g of OO (it was supposed to be 500, but I forgot to subtract the amount I was using to pre-dissolve the colorants when I weighed out the rest of the batch). Into the larger amount of water I added 1 Tbsp of honey (22g) and 1/3 cup milk powder (35g, enough to make 1 cup of milk, which was roughly half of what I was dissolving it into). Then I heated those in the microwave for 30 seconds, just enough to get the water, milk powder, and honey to all mix together. Then that was added to the oil and SB'd into an emulsion. Then the lye water was added... It turned a bright butternut squash-y yellow-orange and started to heat up. After about 30 minutes the heat had dissipated and the color turned a bit lighter and creamier. Then after 40+ minutes it riced and when it came back together, it was too thick for my stick blender. I could hear it making that whine when it's starting to not be able to blend.

So as soon as it was back together I separated off about a third and mixed in WSP's red-orange oil mica that had been pre-mixed in OO, and some titanium dioxide pre-mixed in OO in the rest. I hand-mixed these with spoons because I didn't want to risk my stick blender's motor any more. I chose the mica as the accent color because it's supposed to morph orange in high pHs. It seemed to only do a slight shift in color, not as much as I expected from the warning. Maybe it'll change as the pH of the soap fluctuates. Anyways, here's a pic of the slab! (The glass tray is lined with first plastic wrap, and then freezer paper was put in as a sling.) I did a sort-of Taiwain swirl, even though the batter was WAY too thick for it! lol The lower right corner is the closest to true color.

 

[grayceworks]

So, you're using the mica like a mood ring for your soap?

 

[FlybyStardancer]

lol Kinda! I just thought it would be interesting to see how and how much it would morph.

 

[grayceworks]

I think it's a cool idea. Hmmm... mood ring soap... do they have heat sensitive micas? I wonder...

 

[Tienne]

*Just thinking aloud....*

On the page with the original recipe it says:

"Then add the lye solution to the olive oil and water base,stirring in a bit at a time, and again using great care. Stir the mixture with a long wooden spoon, mixing always in the same direction, until it thickens to the consistency of a thick bechamel — this can take some time. "

I wonder if those things are important as to keeping the emulsification in tact. What do they mean precisely by saying to mix it "using great care"? Do they mean stirring very slowly? Or is it just the usual "lye safety yada yada"? I also remember having read about always stirring in the same direction before and kind of chuckled at the time, thinking it was just some superstitious wives tale kind of thing, but I've since seen it several times in different places, (It seems to always be associated with old timer recipes.) I'm starting to wonder if it in fact does have a purpose. There has to be a reason besides just "hocus pocus superstition" for doing it that way. Maybe it aligns some molecules in some special way. The page doesn't mention anything about the ricing effect at trace and you'd think they would, if it's that pronounced. Maybe they don't experience it at all! Hmm.

Edit: The original page also says;

"Turn out the soap, slice it into bars, and wrap in parchment paper to cure for another two weeks before using."

That has got to mean something, too. Wouldn't that slow down the rate at which the soap came into contact with free moving air and hence CO2 and wouldn't it also slow down evaporation?

Sorry if it seems like I'm a nitpicker. It all may not mean a thing, but I always tend to think of those kinds of clues and bits of information as meaning something, especially when the soap is as weird as this one is. Why else would they make a point of saying it?

 

[engblom]

I have read some articles about old time soap making. This with stirring in the same direction and other really strange things, like taking the moon phase into account, comes from the superstition existing at that time. They lacked real knowledge and came up with their own ideas of why something failed or succeeded.

 

[DeeAnna]

Okay, there might be another issue to consider, and that is the lye concentration. Here's some background to help me make my point:

The old soap makers "boiled" a soap batch with various concentrations of lye, then "salted" it out to separate the finished "grained" soap from the "leys" (their name for the lye-water solution). Remember they didn't have stick blenders in those days -- just a "crutch" or "rake". These were industrial-size stirring devices that weren't too efficient, compared with a SB. A guy stood above a huge soap kettle for hours crutching the soap batter and controlling the fire under the kettle. To make the fats and leys easier to combine, they used various densities of lye solution. They generally started the soap with a watery less-dense lye and finished it with a concentrated heavy lye. More lye = dense, heavy solution = harder to combine with the fats and young soap.

To finish the soap, they separated the soap from the leys by "salting out" to deliberately change the solubility of the soap in the leys. Common table salt is not the only thing that will "salt out" a soap. Just changing the lye concentration will do it too. If the NaOH concentration is just right, the soap curds and the lye water become immiscible. I know that seems weird because soap is supposed to dissolve in water, right? But add lye or common table salt to the water in the right amounts, and things change dramatically.

I think this is what's going on as we try this recipe out. Some of us are getting a stable emulsion in the batter when it comes to trace and some are not. What's the difference?

"...80% of the oils weight with water... I added a lot of water... Now with more water I could mix it to an even batter..."

What Engblom did was to reduce the NaOH concentration and tilt the conditions toward emulsification of the soap and water phases. The initial batter had less water than AnnaMarie's recipe ... no stable emulsion ... add water ... emulsion becomes more stable.

"...There is a separation when this gets close to trace for me.... Eventually, it comes together.... Maybe the trick is to create the right circumstances for a sort of emulsion to take place, holding the water in???..."

Yep, I think you're on the right track, AnnaMarie. From the old soap makers books and Engblom's experience, I suspect the abundance of water -- about 1 quart of water per 1 quart of olive oil -- is absolutely critical to success. My theory is the dilute lye concentration allows an emulsion will form that is stable enough to not weep or break. Either use lye that is this dilute or use lye that is much more concentrated (a "normal" soap recipe), but don't use an in-between concentration.

I also think reasonably cool temps might be important too, based on Newbie and my experience with CPOP. The temperature of my batter started out about 110 deg F (43 C) but cooled considerably . When I poured it into the mold, it was only 93 F (34 C). An hour after molding the batter had only warmed to 95 F (35 C) and seemed fine -- it was holding its shape and there was no weeping. Heat it up in the oven and the soap returns to very soft and starts to weep -- obviously the emulsion broke.

What do y'all think?

 

[DeeAnna]

Wrapping in parchment paper? Remember, parchment paper in my grandmother's day was not the impervious silicone-coated product we use nowadays. It was more breathable. I'm betting the paper wrapping was as much to protect people as it was to protect the soap. My soap isn't exactly zapping hard, but it isn't skin safe either. I'd not want people handling it without some protection.

 

[AnnaMarie]

I'm very curious to know the results of adding the same amount of lye to different amounts of water and what effect diluting has (if any). I'm still trying to find that answer...

I'm going to make a batch in a little bit here and take photos and notes of the process to post. I also ordered some pheno-whatever to test ph of this soap.

 

[seven]

interesting points, Tienne. nothing mentioned about using a SB, and the site clearly picture this lady with a huge wooden spoon stirring the soap

 

[DeeAnna]

Engblom, in your original recipe you used "...80% of the oils weight with water...".

Was that the total amount of water you originally used in the recipe?

Also, do you have an idea of how much more water you added later on?

Just checking to make sure -- I'm wanting to figure out where the "sweet spot" is for the water content.

The recipe I followed had a total of 120% water to 100% of oils -- 1195 g water total, 1000 g oil. Of that total water, 195 g went into the 50% lye solution and 1000 g into the oils. I think that made a stable emulsion as long as the temperature was reasonable.

 

[cmzaha]

With all the lastest discussion I really don't think mine will work with the discount water, but I just had to try and see. I did know it would be risky when I poured it but figured worse case scenario I will have to salt them out in a few months. Just have a feeling it will not be enough liquid to escort the lye to the surface of my soap especially with their 1.25" width. Time will tell, but I will fix them.

 

[judymoody]

This thread has been really interesting for me to read. I think I may try this method just for fun. It also reminded me of an experience that I had a couple of weeks ago when I mismeasured my water. It ended up being about half the oil weight and I thought that was pushing it beyond what the emulsion could bear. But here you're talking about 100% or more.

I also was really curious about DeeAnna's experience with CPOP. I ended up CPOPing my watery soap because I wanted to be able to unmold before 2015. Within a relatively short period of time it started oozing so I yanked it. I assumed I'd have oozy pockets but the soap ended up being uniform in consistency with a bit of liquid on the top of the bars which ended up reabsorbing. I am now really curious about how the amount of water used in soap, more generally, might affect the mildness of the finished product.

I have some high OO soap that I have been using that is 3+ years old. They were made with 5% SF and full water. I am finding them very drying compared to my current formulation which is higher in CO but also higher in SF than my original recipe. The idea of a -40 Castille that isn't slimy and won't destroy your skin is an intriguing one.

I wonder if you reduced the SF to -20 if you could reduce the water proportionately and get a similar result to the original?

 

[DeeAnna]

Lunch time, so I weighed the bars again. In 14 hours since they've been cut, the bars have lost 5% of their original weight. (For comparison, my normal soap loses about 1% of its original weight in the first 24 hours after cutting.) They are not quite so cold and clammy today, but are still cool from ongoing evaporation.

The pale yellow parts that look the most like normal soap are firm with essentially no zap. I tested all surfaces for zap and got nothing. I can dent these lighter areas, but only with a firm press of the finger. The darker translucent areas are still fairly soft -- it takes very little effort to dent those areas. I'm not getting a clear strong zap from these areas, but it's not a "no zap" either so I'm considering this soap to still be lye heavy. I lathered up a scrap of soap and got almost no lather. Somewhat drying (no surprise).

Judy -- In Post 24, AnnaMarie says, "...While I was taking a picture I saw another batch of castile I made recently that I remembered was lye heavy, but not as heavy as this recipe, but it got the goo-factor after use...."

I'm curious -- AnnaMarie can you tell us what the lye excess was for the soap that remained gooey?

 

[AnnaMarie]

Okay, now for my lab report! :think:

-I have done this recipe enough times to tell you that you can either weigh out 32 oz each of water and olive oil or measure 1 quart each with the same results. I have cheated in past a bit and just rounded to 32 even though I know 1 quart of olive oil weighs slightly under 31 and water slightly under 33 or 34. This time I measured the quarts as the recipe called for. I also measured out 3/4 cup of water for diluting the lye as specified. I weighed the water and noted that it weighed slightly over 6 oz. This was interesting as I thought of the ratios in this recipe water to olive = 1:1 water to lye= 1:1. I personally think this formula is key to the best result.

-I began mixing at 10:14 and the soap temp was 105. I used my SB off and on until the soap officially came together at 11:10 (that took longer than I realized- times flies when you're having fun!) Because of the emulsion aspect of this soap I monitored the temp carefully throughout and wondered if there would be a rise in temp at all. The soap batter initially dropped to 104 for the majority of the time, but there was a definite rise of 1 degree at the end when it came together.

-True trace will only happen at the end of this recipe. I performed many trace tests that failed throughout this recipe, right up until the end. When I made this recipe a second time a few years ago I fell for the false trace because the batter had thickened. My soap never set up. You must stick blend until it becomes like lotion. The extra water will only be absorbed when the soap has formed or it will remain liquid-y.

-Another interesting note- I finally figured out how to better describe what it going on and I will post pictures of it. Over time a thick foam develops and begins to look like buttermilk pancake batter. I noted that it became skin-like. I am theorizing that this was the start of the true soap forming and that it collected around the stick blender while on the sides a clear separation of water and soap was going on. The nature of the soap by the end was very plastic which I found curious and decided to drop some in cold water. It didn't disperse, but rather flattened and dropped like candy in the soft-ball stage. I will post pic of that as well.

-As the soap is forming in this recipe the extra liquid remains "on the outside". I think this is because the oil is so saturated (so to speak) that it cannot take in any more lye water and only when all the batter has become true soap and chemically changed can it absorb the extra liquid. I probably did not use the right scientific terms on this, but bear with me...

-For whatever the reason excess lye means a harder and non-gooey soap. I have no theory on this at all

-Judy, I will look at my numbers and give you an answer on your question.

Now for pictures:

The first picture shows the initial foam created from blending, and the second shows a close up of the "skin" that is starting to form

The second pic showing skin

The third picture is further along when a clear separation of soap and lye water is seen

More soap and lye water separation

Soap is all done!

Interesting plastic nature of this soap...

And I also will add that I REALLY sweat this one- literally! This baby gets swathed in bath towels and put to bed like nobody's business. I think that is why I get good results, at least in appearance.

 

[seven]

which one did you mean by the ricing stage? the separation one?

 

[AnnaMarie]

Yes, seven, the separation one. Ricing really wasn't the best term, but I have been floundering a bit on trying to find the right terms for my observations