Deanna, I have a question...

[seven]

cool. thanks for the pics. i am gonna try this one soon and it really helps to see the stages since this is my 1st time. otherwise i know i'll be scared to death thinking i've messed it up, coz the soap did go thru some weird stages i must say

 

[AnnaMarie]

So Deanna, to answer your question I now have a question of my own???? Here is the lye heavy recipe that I am comparing to (the one that got gooey)

Recipe #2
24 oz olive oil
1 oz beeswax (this really does give the soap a nice texture and the lather isn't inhibited)
4 oz lye
10 oz water

In comparing the two recipes (both lye heavy) I noted something.
Recipe #2 the total percentage of lye used in the recipe (all ingredients added) is 10%; however, the lye to fat ratio is 1:6
Recipe #1 (the original) the total percentage of lye in the recipe is only 8%, but the lye to fat ratio is 3/16

The water percentages were even more interesting. So if I am looking at this correcting recipe #2 is actually even heavier in lye, yet still gets gooey, but there is a lot less water. Hmmmmm, any thoughts???

Okay, I need a coffee now....

 

[seven]

Doing it as we speak. Having a ciggie break while my sb takes a breath. This one's gonna take a while.. Cannot imagine that lady on the pic doing it just with a wooden spoon!

 

[AnnaMarie]

I took SB breaks a lot too- didn't want to burn out my SB.

 

[DeeAnna]

Here is what I'm seeing:

Original non-gooey recipe:
1 qt (868 g) olive oil
1 qt + 6 oz (1113 g) water
6 oz wt (170 g) NaOH

0.196 g NaOH / g fat (about -40% lye excess)
15% lye solution concentration (waaaay lower than the usual "full water" at 28%)

Gooey recipe 2:
24 oz wt (681 g) olive oil
1 oz wt (28 g) beeswax
10 oz wt (284 g) water
4 oz wt (113.5 g) NaOH

0.160 g NaOH / g fat (about -17% lye excess)
40% lye solution concentration (this is more like what you'd see in a "normal" soap recipe)

The Saponification Value of olive is about 0.135 g NaOH / g fat, so you put more lye into the soap pot than needed to exactly saponify each gram of fat. But I'm calculating Gooey Recipe #2 as actually having less lye per g of fat than Original Recipe #1. My math could easily be wrong ... I'm converting from English volume and weight units to grams (and stealing time from work to do it) ... so I would be grateful if someone would double check my work. Your lye solution concentration is much less in Recipe #2 as well -- it's more like a normal soap recipe.

As you mentioned early on, the lye solution concentration HAS to be low to get a non-gooey soap. We know 15% works. We know normal lye solution concentrations (full water at 28% up to the max of 50%) don't work.

I'm still not quite sure I can say how much lye excess is enough vs. not enough. Ah, a goal to shoot for!

PS: Yep, about 30 seconds of SB out of every 5 minutes of stirring was about all my SB could handle!

And great photos, AnnaMarie -- your batter looked very similar to mine. Thank you!

The point of trace in this recipe is about like the difference between "zap" and "no zap". If there's any question in your mind about whether you've hit trace or not ... you haven't. Keep mixing!

 

[seven]

finished! exactly an hour like AnnaMarie did. i was only doing half of the recipe. had a bit of a headache converting quarts, cups, to grams, lol

my stages came exactly like AM posted. once you hit ricing/separation, you'll know that it's about to be done. the batter got real thick real quick after that. and it just slides out of the container when i was pouring in to the mold, like there was a film of oil or something. again, exactly like AM described i was getting a bit frustrated pre-separation stage. it took sooooo bloody long. normal castile is nothing compared to this.

separation stage

done

hopefully sleeping soundly in its bed

i had fun. it was fascinating to see the soap goes thru the stages. never seen something like that before. i don't insulate mine with blankets. am using a silicone mold with a wooden box that has a close on top. hopefully that's enough.

 

[DeeAnna]

Beautiful, Seven!!! Bravo -- well done!

 

[newbie]

Interestingly, I did not get a foamy batter like yours, AM. I did get the skin forming around the SB as I got closer to trace and my separation looked pretty similar. I did not have the sense of the batter being plastic-like though. Do you think it was because your bowl was glass? I made mine in a SS bowl and it by no means just slid out.

My batch that only slightly separated turned out completely normal, but the other half not. I think I will try this again to see how it goes when I'm more familiar with the process. I must have the wimpiest SB out there for you guys to manage it in an hour though!

I thought I would add that since the recipe was in volume, I measured mine out in volume and I was not terribly precise. I thought I would do it like they might have in the day and I used my big 1 qt glass measuring cup. I just went with the volume but I know my oil weighed out to 32.1oz and my water to 30.8 ounces. I did not weigh my 3/4 cup of hot water though (Sorry- not very scientific, is it?). I did weight the lye to 6 ounces. Will weigh my bars later and see if my water loss is similar to DeeAnna's.

 

[AnnaMarie]

"The resulting solution is usually colourless and odorless with slippery feeling upon contact in common with other alkalis." -Wikipedia on sodium hydroxide

I realize that Wikipedia is not the most scholarly source of information:roll::roll:, but in trying to read more about lye and what it does and what it contributes to the soap making process I came across this statement which made me think of the slippery and plastic-like quality of the finished soap. I still am trying to learn if there is a further quality of lye that makes soap better if you add more. I'll keep looking...
Nice job Seven! I hope you enjoy your castile. I really like this recipe. Did tongue test today- no zap, just yucky!
Cheers!
Anna Marie

Interestingly, I did not get a foamy batter like yours, AM. I did get the skin forming around the SB as I got closer to trace and my separation looked pretty similar. I did not have the sense of the batter being plastic-like though. Do you think it was because your bowl was glass? I made mine in a SS bowl and it by no means just slid out.

My batch that only slightly separated turned out completely normal, but the other half not. I think I will try this again to see how it goes when I'm more familiar with the process. I must have the wimpiest SB out there for you guys to manage it in an hour though!

I thought I would add that since the recipe was in volume, I measured mine out in volume and I was not terribly precise. I thought I would do it like they might have in the day and I used my big 1 qt glass measuring cup. I just went with the volume but I know my oil weighed out to 32.1oz and my water to 30.8 ounces. I did not weigh my 3/4 cup of hot water though (Sorry- not very scientific, is it?). I did weight the lye to 6 ounces. Will weigh my bars later and see if my water loss is similar to DeeAnna's.

I actually used a ss pot to make mine in. I did use a spatula to scrape it out, but there was still a slippery quality to the batter that gave it a synthetic sort of look and caused it to slip and slide around easily. I measured my ingredients in a glass quart cup as well . I am very much enjoying this, but I would ultimately like to know why this soap stays nice (IMO). The good news if this experiment should bomb for anyone is that you have laundry detergent soap now. FYI- did you know sodium hydroxide is used in a lot of food preparation? I will never look at pretzels and olives the same way again

 

[DeeAnna]

My reaction to the finished batter was that it looked like that awful canned vanilla pudding they serve in school lunch rooms. I guess that could be a kind of plastic, maybe?

 

[AnnaMarie]

My reaction to the finished batter was that it looked like that awful canned vanilla pudding they serve in school lunch rooms. I guess that could be a kind of plastic, maybe?

Lol! Perhaps...I use the word plastic because the outside of the batter seemed to be coated with a slippery substance, keeping the batter "together" so to speak. Dropping a spoonful into water the batter stayed together- notice the pic?

 

[seven]

Thanks DeeAnna and AnnaMarie..

I have a question.. Just checked, and there was this pool of water. Did this mean like when AM said about the extra water being on the outside while the soap is forming? My heart sank a lil bit when i saw what happened. Was expecting a soap that is starting to get hard, but instead i saw this water around it? Quite a lot too i must say. My hands are itchy for a cpop



i see no oil, just water. what happened to this soap? it's been in the mold for 5 hrs. glad i am using a sili. had it been wood it would make a mess all over da place!

 

[DeeAnna]

Seven -- I feel your pain about CPOP, but I'd just grit my teeth and let it be, if it were my soap. My molds are wooden and not water tight, so the liquid slowly drained out. If yours are water tight, you might just have to wait until tomorrow. See if the soap is firm enough at that time to tip the mold so the liquid can drain -- or even unmold the soap. Be careful though, because the liquid will be caustic, so gloves and eye protection are good ideas.

(Edit: I see your pic now. I stand by my earlier advice to hold tight and let things be. What I think is happening to you is what happened to me -- the emulsion is not stable and some of the water phase is weeping out of the batter.)

My very, very clean oven is proof that the drainage liquid is strong stuff. Hmmm.... Gotta be careful ... if DH sees the oven now, he'll think I'm getting to like housekeeping. Can't have that! Maybe I'll have to bake something that boils over ... no, can't have him thinking I like to cook either ... aw, fugeddaboudit!

(Actually, I do like to cook. DH's ample waistline is proof of that....)

AnnaMarie -- Yes, the pic of the batter in water is impressive. It certainly has no intention of mixing with the water any time soon!

 

[seven]

Thank u DeeAnna! Pheww, was glad to read yer post. Ok so this is supposed to be normal and part of the process. Will monitor and try to unmold when possible.

Ps: my mom would be SO pissed if i ruin her oven. thank the soap god i decided to use a sili

ETA: hmmm.. Just read your edited comment about unstable emulsification. i did think whether my sb-ing was enough. i kept looking at AM's pic and the end batter looked the same. Perhaps it wasn't enough? Or some error i did at the beginning? I did pour the hot lye to RT oil. The original recipe said nothing about temps.

Okay, i should simmer down and just wait n see now

 

[AnnaMarie]

Seven, I agree with Deanna to restrain from CPOP-Ing your soap I have had to drain liquid before myself. Speaking of restraint, I just took a second forbidden peek at my soap. It's no where near ready to cut. It's still warm and coming out of gel I think from the translucent look of things. By tomorrow I should have some creamy white bars.

 

[FlybyStardancer]

As far as my experiences go...

I only got a little bit of skin, only while I was stick blending near the separation point. When it separated for me, it separated really badly. When I finally got it to come back together, it was very shiny and VERY thick.

In the mold, it didn't gel for me (like every other soap I've made). About 21-22 hours later it hasn't separated. It looks drier, but it's still got a satin-y look to it. Later I'll put on a glove and test it to see if it's ready to unmold. I doubt it will be, given the rest of my experiences.

 

[engblom]

Engblom, in your original recipe you used "...80% of the oils weight with water...".

Was that the total amount of water you originally used in the recipe?

Also, do you have an idea of how much more water you added later on?

Just checking to make sure -- I'm wanting to figure out where the "sweet spot" is for the water content.

The recipe I followed had a total of 120% water to 100% of oils -- 1195 g water total, 1000 g oil. Of that total water, 195 g went into the 50% lye solution and 1000 g into the oils. I think that made a stable emulsion as long as the temperature was reasonable.

Yes, what I made first had 80% water. I also aimed for -20% SF comparing to the -40% SF AnnaMarie is using.

What I added will not help you in finding the sweet spot. I ended up with 300% which is far from the sweet spot. I planned from the beginning to salt out this batch and I did not care if I get too much of water.

I had the whole batch gelling in the oven for 20 hours before washing and salting it out 4 times with 500% water each time.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Would someone kindly explain to me what "salting soap out" is and what it entails? I am not familiar at all with that term.
Cheers!
Anna Marie
Ps- while I'm thinking about it, what soap calc are you all using to be getting these negative percentages and such? I don't see such things on the soap calc I use, and I'm feeling left out

 

[cmzaha]

in soap calc you can add in the minus superfat number you are aiming for. When I make ls I always use a -13 superfat. In the case of your recipe it was just a matter of trying different minus numbers until the calculations matched your recipe. Salting out the soap is cooking cp soap in heavy salted water. This will result in removing any lye and the glycerin in the soap. It really makes a nice soap and leaves you with brown ugly water

 

[AnnaMarie]

Thank you Carolyn :smile::smile: