CP soap vs glycerin soap for leather cleaning?

[Lin]

I hope this is an OK section to use. First up, are there differences besides the adding sugar, glycerin, and alcohol? What changes in the soap does this make outside of translucence and higher glycerin content? Especially physiologically and in use.

Glycerin soap was the original saddle soap. Still is frequently used, despite all sorts of liquid leather cleansers or leather wipes.

I've been using my cold process soap to clean leather for some time now. I haven't had any issues, but I wonder if glycerin soap really is better to the job.

I make my own recipe of leather balm (similar to passier or effax lederbalsam). I frequently send a sample of the leather balm with sales of leather products I make like dog collars and leashes etc. I'd like to up this to a soap sample and balm sample. Also have a small kit people could purchase with soap, balm, and a tack sponge with directions.

 

[Lin]

Bump? Even if you know nothing of leather and cleaning it, how about cp vs homemade glycerin soap?

 

[CaraBou]

Lin!!! Hello!

I can't answer your questions but I'm glad to see you again and hope you are well!

Hopefully D or another leather buff will be along soon to help you out. I'll help you keep this bumped.

 

[Lin]

Thanks! I haven't been great but working on it. Short version of the story is my GI system shut down due to my genetic disorder. Became malnourished and required IV fluids and had a feeding tube placed. I couldn't tolerate the formula either since it's not just my stomach (the tube bypasses the stomach). Unfortunately my Dr was negligent and incompetent in my case and I spent TWO YEARS under his care failing tube feeds with no changes, despite worsening physical features and labs.

As a complicated case it took me a while to find a GI who would take me. He was my savior, immediately started me on tpn. Eventually I got to the point of riding again, and started free leasing a horse. Then I was offered a job teaching there once a week. My savior then left the state for an awesome offer, followed by sepsis and I was off my tpn IV nutrition for a few months and rapidly declined waiting for the Dr who I was referred to. Finally seeing her and making changes to get back what I lost.

I'm hoping to get working on soap for Christmas, it's been a while since I made any. And I really want to make some saddle soap to pair with my leather conditioner. Send samples with my leather leashes, collars, etc that I make. Give samples to people at the barn and try to get more clients. I've had no issue using regular cp soap on my leather, but the horse community is used to a semi translucent glycerin soap when using that type of leather cleaner. And I don't know enough about glycerin soap to know if it may be better quality for leather. The way you clean it is with a tack sponge (or similar small. Sponge) and get it all lathered up then scrub the leather. The foam changes colors with the lifted dirt. Crevices are cleaned with a tooth brush. You can either rinse with a clean wet tack sponge, a wet rag, or both. I like to do both if I have time, going until the rag comes back fairly clean still. Soap left behind can contribute to gunk later. Then when the leather is dry you condition it multiple times. Apply conditioner all over and wait for it to soak in and the leather to be dry, then apply more conditoner. Repeat until the leather cannot absorb any more conditoner then buff the excess off and leave it a bit before using. Conditioners can be straight oils, oil combinations, or oils with beeswax which helps leave a shine and protect the saddle from water damage. So it's similar to making skin moisturizers, but testing on leather.

 

[CaraBou]

I'm glad you're regaining what you lost, and hope it takes you to new heights.

My questions were a little different, but while waiting for more specific answers you can look at a similar thread about cleaning leather (suede) that I posted last winter.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/handmade-leather-canvas-cleaner.62652/

 

[DeeAnna]

Hi, Lin -- I'm glad to hear from you again! I have wondered if you were doing okay.

I'm not sure what you mean by "glycerin soap" -- most people use that name when they mean transparent soap or melt and pour soap. I can't say I'd agree that saddle soap falls in the transparent soap category.

In the old soap making manuals (1800s and early 1900s), the saddle and harness soap recipes provided look more like a normal basic type of soap but with a moderate superfat of neatsfoot oil or similar fats. Lamp black (carbon black) powder was also added if the soap was to be used on black harness to help maintain the color, but you'd not want that for saddlery.

Translating the old recipes a bit, here's an example --

Hard soap: 80% tallow, 10% coconut oil, 10% rosin (colophony). Use zero superfat and 100% NaOH as the alkali. Use a hot process method. After saponification is complete, but while the soap is still hot and fluid, stir in neatsfoot oil at 10% ppo as the superfat. This recipe could be modified by omitting the rosin (not many people have that on hand) and adding 5% to the tallow and to the coconut.

Paste soap: Same recipe as above, but use 100% KOH as the alkali. This is basically a liquid soap paste that you would use as-is -- do not dilute.

Not-quite-so-soft-as-paste soap: Mix about 80% by weight of finished NaOH soap with 20% of the KOH soap. This would basically be a rebatch process. (Or make a dual-lye soap.) Adjust proportions of NaOH soap and KOH soap as needed to get a texture that suits your taste.​

More threads on saddle and harness type soaps --

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/rules-saddle-soap-or-non-cosmetic-soap.61831/
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/stearic-acid-does-it-make-the-soap-milder.47892/
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/saddle-soap.26315/
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/beeswax-saddle-soap.24746/
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/saddle-soap.7129/
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/soft-melt-and-pour.53361/

 

[Angelique]

All I know is that regular soap is often to rough on leather because it takes all the nice oils out of the leather what it keeps it soft
You can damage the color,I seen it at the dry cleaners where I work
So what I am thinking; why not make a soap with a nice superfat percentage
You can not have it dry out on you
Then oil it in with a saddle oil

 

[Lin]

D, I think you're going back too far in history. From the 90s upward what's been most known and used as saddle soap was pucks of glycerin soap in tins. Around the 00s liquid leather "cleansers" became popular. Including ones that claimed to clean and condition in one step, claimed to restore leather, etc. I've always thought they were garbage and soaped and oiled my leather separately.

Angelique can you expand on your claims and how they work? Leather is skin, just somewhat dried out. How does regular cp soap dry it out more? Especially if it's a superfatted soap. And one should always oil the leather after it's dried from being cleaned. You should oil the leather up until it won't absorb any more oil. Then buff the excess with a soft cloth.

I already make heavily superfatted soap, it's what I prefer for my skin. And the only non superfatted I ever make is for Laundry soap.

But I wonder why saddle soap was always glycerin soap and not cp. Maybe the thought was the added glycerin being a humectant and thus better. Or maybe thought the translucency appeared better and it just became vogue. Horse people can be very political, especially about products they use.

 

[Lin19687]

Gonna date myself........ On saddles / Bridles we used Murphy's diluted in warm water when we really wanted a clean clean leather. Then dried and oils after I think with Mink oil which also looked great on my Navy Military shoes that I kept secret from everyone.

There is a big difference between Live skin and Leather. live skin still has oils/fluids still within it and coming to the surface, because it is Live. Leather is Tanned with chemicals (or naturally with Brains) it is dead and has no fluids. CP soap it drying because it cleans... takes away oils. Some people have oils that come back faster others don't. Hence the reason why some think it is great while others think not
Course this is IMHO on CP feel. But the leather to live skin is fact

 

[KimT2au]

Probably a silly question but do the tins of the soap you have at the moment list ingredients?

 

[earlene]

I have used tins of Saddle Soap for years on my boots, shoes, belts & purses and no, they don't list the ingredients. Maybe new tins do, but I remember searching Google a couple of years ago for pictures of the tins to see if they did then, and found no ingredients listed online either.

Probably a silly question but do the tins of the soap you have at the moment list ingredients?

My mother & her brothers tooled leather and Saddle Soap followed by a good oil rub or leather conditioner was the recommendation. I also always kept my softball glove well conditioned, but it's been awhile since I've used it .

Anyway after unsuccessfully searching for ingredients online a couple years ago, I decided purchasing my already tried and true products was just a better bet than trying to formulate something myself. That's not to say others shouldn't do so, of course. That's just my take on it for me.

Lin, I'm curious. Does your leather balm include lanolin?

 

[DeeAnna]

Vegetable-tanned leather often has fats and waxes added to it as part of the tanning process. Bridles, English saddles, and related tack are like that. Western saddles "carved" with a decorative pattern are often made of carving leather. This is a "dry" leather as it comes from the tannery, and the maker usually oils the leather after carving. Chrome tanned items may or may not have fats and waxes added; it depends on the leather.

The biggest deal I see with saddle soap and conditioners is that people use too much saddle soap and don't rinse it off sufficiently and they over condition the leather. Improperly cleaned and over-conditioned leather mildews easily and gets flabby and soft. For this reason, I don't recommend saddle soap nor do I recommend heavy, greasy conditioners for the leather items I make.

Many people don't match the type of leather care with the usage of the item. Lightly used items or items like wallets and purses need only very light conditioning once or maybe twice a year, if that, and often just a gentle cleaning or dusting with a damp cloth is all that's needed. For items like work boots, gloves, or tack that is used heavily and often, a heavier conditioner is fine to use. Even then, I'd rather see people use the product lightly and more often rather than slather conditioner on like mayonnaise. You can always add more, but you can't remove too much. I just cringe when I hear about people dunking their expensive, fancy English bridles in olive oil in the belief that is the way to care for fine bridlery.

edit: Leather isn't quite the same as hair, but IMO somewhat the same caveats apply to both. Leather and hair are non-living materials, so damage will accumulate and cannot be repaired. Also, both are normally somewhat acidic and should stay that way for best longevity. Any lye-based soap is alkaline, so using soap on leather can be detrimental. Once in awhile is likely okay, but often is not such a good idea. Back in the day, soap might have been the only option for cleaning dirty tack and other leather items, but there are some excellent pH adjusted non-soap cleaners available today.