Anne Watson reference to TD reducing lather/moisturizing

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not_ally

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I was looking through my Kindle version of Anne Watson's book on milk soaps yesterday and she mentioned that TD reduced lather *and* moisturizing. I wasn't sure if she just meant w/milk soaps or all of them. In any event, I had never seen a reference to this anywhere else - searched here w/o luck - and wondered if anyone else had ever seen one.

For me the only real down sides of TD are speeding trace and the occasional glycerin river, but I generally like her advice, I think she is a good soap-maker/soap-writer, so thought I would see if anyone else had seen anything about this or experienced it.
 

MorpheusPA

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It kind of makes sense, although I couldn't cough up scientific proof of that to save my life.

Titanium dioxide absorbs oils, just like zinc oxide sunscreen can dry your skin a bit if not offset with a nice oil (fortunately, in practice, the sunscreen has a good base that helps it adhere and keeps you from drying out).

So sure, I'm confident that high levels of TD can reduce the moisturizing ability of the soap, although you could just super fat at a higher level to compensate.

Unfortunately, as the SF rises, the lather drops again so you'll take a double hit on that...
 

not_ally

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That makes sense, Morpheus, thanks for talking it through. TD is one of those things that I would be loath to give up, so that does suck a little. Although I have been using it all along quite happily w/o knowing/thinking about any of this, so I guess all is still good!
 

snappyllama

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I've kind of seen this on one batch where I went pretty heavy handed on the TD. The bars had a chalky texture and didn't lather very well. They also felt much more drying than my normal ones. I just checked my notes... it was a CM recipe.

I haven't noticed any reduction of lather on bars with a normal amount of TD though...
 

not_ally

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I haven't noticed any reduction of lather on bars with a normal amount of TD though...
That's what I was hoping, Snappy. I almost always use TD, so don't really have a basis of comparison. I have not had too many of the "normal" TD problems, so am probably not over-using it. But when I saw that from her, I had a brief moment of "crap, I have been doing it wrong for all those batches!" But needs must, if you want white swirls, I guess :)
 

not_ally

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Man, Stacy, TD has been one of those things that I have been tinkering w/for ever. As I said, I pretty much always use it, so have tried a lot. I always buy the powdered now, b/c the pre-mixed from the suppliers are too expensive b/c of my usage. My current experimental batch is 50/50 Nurture oil based TD (v. expensive and more likely to cause glycerin rivers, but makes a really white soap) and soapsupplies.net oil based TD (much cheaper, no g.r's, but not as white.) Both mix well w/oil as well.

I do small master batches, so that I don't have to do this every time, for each batch, and do use a mini-frother to make make sure that they are completely mixed. I use a ratio of 1 tspn of the TD 50/50 powder mix to 1 TB of a light oil, usually SAO, in amounts depending on how much soaping I might do over the next month or so. Despite my obsession w/it, I really hate mixing TD, it is messy and sticky, and is hard to wash off my brown hands, so it is worth it to master-batch.

I then put the mix in a squeezie bottle. When I add my master-batched/squeezie TD mix into the color batchlet I generally use a mini-whisk and mix well with that rather than an SB since it tends to trace fast. I am not scientific about how much of the TD mix I squeeze into the swirling batchlets, in part b/c I try to start with a smaller amount of TD and then add if necessary to get a lighter color, but maybe 1-2 tspn of the masterbatch mix per cup of swirl batter? I do try to come close to getting it right without too much adjustment b/c it will cause the white swirl batchlet to trace faster, I always mix that one last for that reason.

Sorry this is so complicated. It actually helped me to type it out b/c I had been thinking of mixing my TD in glycerin (pretty much the universal mixing compound for all colorants) rather than TD, but I think I might stick to oil b/c of the glycerin river problem w/TD and the fact that one of my TD powders already seems susceptible to that.
 
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snappyllama

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I'm not sure of the amounts I use... I eyeball them. That overly TD'ed batch of mine... I took a fairly green/yellow (it had AO and hemp in it- about 30% of the total oils and the OO was another 20%) recipe to bright white. I just kept adding TD like a fool until the batter was bright white. DH said he wanted a white soap, and I was determined not to let common sense stop me. ;)
 

IrishLass

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I've never noticed any dryness or lack of lather with TD in my own formulas, but I stick to 1 teaspoon ppo- it became my absolute maximum early on after making a chalky batch that contained something like 1.5 to 2 teaspoons TD ppo. Normally, though, I find I can actually use less than a teaspoon to get the effect that I want.


Edited to add that my 1 teaspoon ppo refers to how much TD I use in powdered form.


IrishLass :)
 
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MorpheusPA

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At "normal" amounts of 1 tsp PPO give or take a fair bit, I've never noticed a difference between the TD soap and the basic recipe using other (or no) colorants.

How high you'd have to go, I'm not sure. For me, if it's reasonably white, that's white enough, so I'm not likely to ever find out what "high" rates really are!
 

LittleCrazyWolf

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I use .25-1 tsp ppo as a guideline for myself but can't remember ever going over .5 tsp ppo. At that amount I didn't feel a difference between the white swirls and the rest of the soap.

I use Nurture's Super White TD and it does a great job. I just mix with a tiny (really tiny) bit of water before adding to the soap. I find that I have to stick blend TD to really see good results.
 
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not_ally

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I think part of the difficulty in figuring out how to use TD/how much to use is (a) how it is used, ie; to color the whole batch rather than in swirl amounts and (b) the fact that people differ in terms of how they measure, ie; "x" amount ppo/dry rather than "x" amt ppo pre-mixed in oil. Ugh, so I am probably going to describe my own usage incorrectly, my math is horrible.

For my own measurements, if this makes the measuring differences more clear. I almost never use TD in the whole batch, just in a separate color batchlet for a swirl, so assessing a ppo measure to which to add TD would not be useful for me, it is already in batter form when I add the TD to the part that I want to be white for a swirl.

My TD powder (the Nurture/ss.net combo) is mixed at 1 tspn mixed powders:1 TB SAO.

So my rough estimate of 1-2 tspns of the masterbatched TD/SAO mix per cup of soap batter (for the white swirl amount) would roughly break down into 1/5 - 2/5 of a tspn of powdered TD, mixed into 1/5-2/5 a TB of SAO oil per *cup* of batter.

I think. Although I am so confused I kind of have no idea anymore. LCW, I really like the milkiness of the Nurture TD, but after several batches using different water amounts and mixing it in different ways I gave up on it using it alone, I experience glycerin rivers in pretty much all of them. Perhaps it was my oil mix/water amount/location (ambient temps)/process, so many things go into this.

I am not opposed to glycerine rivers in principal, but I want to choose for them to appear, if at all possible, so the mix w/the of Nurture and ss.net TD powders works well for me, I am willing to give up on the clarity of the white to be able to reduce the chance of the rivers.

I am sure my math is wrong above, but I am going to eat lunch now, that is way more fun than math.

Just for me and with my formula and process (I am so anal that despite the foregoing, I am not willing to totally recalibrate everything in those things to get them squared up with the Nurture TD, it is easier the other way :)
 
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Obsidian

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I use a cheap water dispersed TD at 1 tsp (dry) PPO max. I mix it up with a tiny bit of water in a 1oz disposable cup so its less messy. I used to get a lot of glycerin rivers but once I started using a water discount, no more rivers, not even when I gel.

I've never noticed any reduction of lather or it being drying.
 

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