100% Olive Oil Soap ... bit of a mishap.

[LindaLMT]

I've been CP soaping for 8 years. It's a hobby that I do for me and friends. I wanted to make a 100% olive oil soap and advice I picked up (not from here) said to do a water discount so I wouldn't have to wait forever for it dry out and to use sodium lactate to make unmolding easy.
So … I did a 20% water discount and used sodium lactate according to instructions.
I soaped at 100 degrees, gelled, and unmolded the next day because it was that dry and hard. It also crumbled somewhat along the bottom on one side. I otherwise love it but want to obviously make it better.
What did I do wrong … to much of a water discount? not do a water discount and sodium lactate?
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[DeeAnna]

I have no idea what you mean by a "20% lye discount". People use several different definitions for "full water" and "lye discount" or "water discount", so unless you also explain how you define how you do a lye discount, this information is not really helpful to anyone else.

A better way to explain how you set up your recipe is to give the lye concentration or water:lye ratio. Then everyone will know exactly what you mean.
---
Anyway, an olive oil soap takes longer to cure than most soap does, whether you use less water or more water. Cure is not just about losing water.

I typically use a 35% to 40% lye concentration to make olive oil soap or other high oleic soap. Less water helps this type of soap come to trace easily and saponify well. If I use more water (in other words, use a lower lye concentration), it doesn't come to trace as quickly.

What I suspect you should have done is to watch soap like this more closely and get it cut it when it's ready to cut. (I'm assuming you weren't using individual molds.) Same thing happens with a 100% coconut oil soap.

These types of soap can harden up fast and need to be cut sooner than normal -- you want to cut when they have the right firm-but-pliable cheddar cheese texture, not according to the clock. If you wait too long with this type of soap, the soap will have a harder parmesan texture and can be brittle and difficult to cut.

This can be even more true with sodium lactate or other additives that increase hardness. I don't know how much SL you used, but it can also contribute to a harder-than-expected soap that needs to be cut sooner rather than later.

 

[LindaLMT]

I have no idea what you mean by a "20% lye discount". People use several different definitions for "full water" and "lye discount" or "water discount", so unless you also explain how you define how you do a lye discount, this information is not really helpful to anyone else.

A better way to explain how you set up your recipe is to give the lye concentration or water:lye ratio. Then everyone will know exactly what you mean.
---
Anyway, an olive oil soap takes longer to cure than most soap does, whether you use less water or more water. Cure is not just about losing water.

I typically use a 35% to 40% lye concentration to make olive oil soap or other high oleic soap. Less water helps this type of soap come to trace easily and saponify well. If I use more water (in other words, use a lower lye concentration), it doesn't come to trace as quickly.

What I suspect you should have done is to watch soap like this more closely and get it cut it when it's ready to cut. (I'm assuming you weren't using individual molds.) Same thing happens with a 100% coconut oil soap.

These types of soap can harden up fast and need to be cut sooner than normal -- you want to cut when they have the right firm-but-pliable cheddar cheese texture, not according to the clock. If you wait too long with this type of soap, the soap will have a harder parmesan texture and can be brittle and difficult to cut.

This can be even more true with sodium lactate or other additives that increase hardness. I don't know how much SL you used, but it can also contribute to a harder-than-expected soap that needs to be cut sooner rather than later.

I noted a 20% water discount … not lye.

I took the amount of water called for and reduced it by 20%. My soap calculation notes water:lye ratio to be 2.9526:1

I took the amount of water called for and reduced it by 20%. My soap calculation notes water:lye ratio to be 2.9526:1

Lye concentration noted on soap calc is 25.3%

 

[DeeAnna]

Thanks for the water:lye ratio and lye concentration. The water content is on the high side, but more likely to make the soap softer rather than harder. I don't see any problem is lurking there.

I don't know if my other suggestions are helpful, but hopefully something that people contribute here will be of use to you.

edited first paragraph for clarity

 

[LindaLMT]

Thanks for the water:lye ratio and lye concentration. Those numbers are pretty typical for making liquid soap, so no problem is lurking there.

I don't know if my other suggestions are helpful, but hopefully something that people contribute here will be of use to you.

Thank You.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Did you gel the soap? I often find that i have crumbly soap when I don't gel ( which is rarely these days because I always gel so they don't crumble )

 

[LindaLMT]

I did gel it. I've never had crumbly soap. Often my soap is soft and sticky and takes a few days to dry enough before cutting which was why I was so surprised with this one. Seems it set up too quickly and was much harder.

 

[Obsidian]

100% olive oil soap can behave oddly. I've had it take days to set up enough to cut, I've also had it set up so hard in 12 hours I could barely cut it.
It one of those soap you need to keep a eye on and cut once its set up enough since it can get incredibly hard.

 

[penelopejane]

So you say you started with a recipe that was 25% lye conc. So say at 1000g OO that would mean 64g lye and 193 g of water. Reduce that by 20% = 155g water. So that means you used a lye concentration of 29.5%. That is a lot of water for a Castile soap.

Without doing any calculations if you try 33% lye concentration you will have an easier time.
Increase the lye concentration on the soapcalc reduces the amount of water in a recipe.
Using SL sounds like it speeds the hardness without going for a higher lye concentration. So you could also stick to your 30% lye concentration and SL but do the following...

There are a few reasons for crumbling soap. One idea is that it has something to do with soaping temperatures and emulsion. If you try soaping at 110*F (yes, that means heating the oil) and take your mix to at least over light trace (but not quite to medium) you might find that you get rid of the crumbling/hard sections. I use silicone molds in timber boxes and I also cover my soap and wrap it in a blanket or put it in a polystyrene box to encourage gel.

It seems annoying that you have to be so particular about making soap and I know a lot of people just throw it all together and voila - perfect soap. But for me, to get a consistent result, I try and control as many variables and it seems to work.

DeeAnna's post is perfect.
I don't use SL but it does make soap harder but I still think you can solve the problem.

 

[Rsapienza]

100% olive oil soap can behave oddly. I've had it take days to set up enough to cut, I've also had it set up so hard in 12 hours I could barely cut it.
It one of those soap you need to keep a eye on and cut once its set up enough since it can get incredibly hard.

I thought I was the only one. This has always had me stumped. Castile has a mind all its own.

 

[penelopejane]

I thought I was the only one. This has always had me stumped. Castile has a mind all its own.

I think OO is just a bit more sensitive!
Try soaping each time at the same temp and at the same level of trace and see if that doesn't make a difference for you ie: give you more control. This also applies to high OO soaps.

 

[LindaLMT]

100% olive oil soap can behave oddly. I've had it take days to set up enough to cut, I've also had it set up so hard in 12 hours I could barely cut it.
It one of those soap you need to keep a eye on and cut once its set up enough since it can get incredibly hard.

Thank you so much.

 

[LindaLMT]

So you say you started with a recipe that was 25% lye conc. So say at 1000g OO that would mean 64g lye and 193 g of water. Reduce that by 20% = 155g water. So that means you used a lye concentration of 29.5%. That is a lot of water for a Castile soap.

Without doing any calculations if you try 33% lye concentration you will have an easier time.
Increase the lye concentration on the soapcalc reduces the amount of water in a recipe.
Using SL sounds like it speeds the hardness without going for a higher lye concentration. So you could also stick to your 30% lye concentration and SL but do the following...

There are a few reasons for crumbling soap. One idea is that it has something to do with soaping temperatures and emulsion. If you try soaping at 110*F (yes, that means heating the oil) and take your mix to at least over light trace (but not quite to medium) you might find that you get rid of the crumbling/hard sections. I use silicone molds in timber boxes and I also cover my soap and wrap it in a blanket or put it in a polystyrene box to encourage gel.

It seems annoying that you have to be so particular about making soap and I know a lot of people just throw it all together and voila - perfect soap. But for me, to get a consistent result, I try and control as many variables and it seems to work.

DeeAnna's post is perfect.
I don't use SL but it does make soap harder but I still think you can solve the problem.

Thank you.