Water is better than vinegar for caustic lye exposures

[ycartf]

Hey everyone. I have been reading on here for a while and I notice that a lot of people advise the use of vinegar (acidic ... ph of around 2.5) for when lye accidentally comes into contact with skin. While this does work, as far as neutralizing the alkali/caustic/lye, it is also more traumatic to tissue when compared to copious amounts of water. I am a fireman/paramedic/hazmat technician for the last 16 years and we use baking soda (alkali) to neutralize say - a battery someone dropped off their truck so that the acid from it does not affect the water when it is washed down the storm drain. But you see a pronounced reaction when the alkali and acid meet (remember the foaming volcano science experiment from school). This reaction can be as damaging as - or even more damaging than - the alkali exposure on your skin. Brushing away any particles of lye possible while still dry, and then copious amounts of water and gentle brushing is the least traumatic way to handle a spill/exposure. Always remove all you can of ANY dry chemical exposure while it is dry first (less to become a solution on your skin). Remember, any lye remaining on your skin is going to become more damaging once it is wet ... like becoming "activated" ... so have plenty of cool water available. An acid like vinegar WILL neutralize the alkali back down, but it is a reaction you would be best served to not have occurring on your skin. I know most of my exposures have been only a couple grains/beads of lye, so if you are talking about that small of an amount there is not much reaction either way. Just a little FWIW and have a great day.

 

[Saltysteele]

it's not really the dry lye that people are using it to wash off, but the lye solution, in which case, the reaction is already happening, and the acidic properties of vinegar are very much more able to quickly neutralize the solution, than just water.

while i understand what you're saying, i very much disagree.

 

[Gramma Judy]

Yep, I agree. Lots of water, whether the lye is dry or wet. Then use vinegar.

 

[Deda]

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s4034.htm

Here's the MSDS for NaOH solutions.

Use water, lots and lots of it.

Vinegar is great for cleaning up your work area.

Frankly, if you are storing any amount of lye in your home it's irresponsible not to have a printed MSDS readily available.

 

[MyNaturesArt]

Yup! I have one printed above my work station for any and all who might get "into" stuff!

 

[ycartf]

"More able to quickly neutralize the solution"

Yes, absolutely, without-a-doubt I agree -

but the rapid "neutralization" is not as innocuous as it sounds and absolutely worsens tissue damage - just trying to help I promise. Reactions on the skin are traumatic, and if the lye is wet there is already an alkali reaction occurring - no way around that - but adding a neutralization reaction ("fizzing") is not going to help as much as removing the alkali and cooling the already-occurring burn. Folks used to think putting butter on a burn is great too - but it actually holds the heat in and fosters infection.

The main reason I brought this up was a previous experience. Another (very green) medic was trying to tell a patient who was being treated for having had acid splashed in his eyes, that next time he should try to rinse them with some baking soda and the ER physician corrected him right quick-like and in a hurry - telling them they did NOT want the reaction/neutralization occurring in their eyeball.

 

[Billie]

I have read that too. Lots and lots of cold water. Vinegar is for cleaning up any spills. I have had lye on me several times and I just run to the sink and rub skin under cold water. Always works for me. :wink:

 

[tincanac]

This is good news - I have 25L tank of vinegar - and water is way cheaper than vinegar - I think I'll swap the vinegar to the 10L tank and fill the 25L with water - and now I need to geta flour dispenser for the baking soda - yep I tend to do things in bulk!

 

[Saltysteele]

lol, tin

you sound like my father-in-law

loves Sam's club, a warehouse club kind of store owned by wal-fart

however, you shouldn't need bulk baking soda, unless 1) plan on housing batteries, b) plan on doing a lot of baking

:wink:

 

[Rosey]

Thanks for posting this. I printed out that page and it's going up in my "area".

 

[IanT]

I kind of fall at a split decision... I **** sure am not gettin baking soda near my skin just due to the scary thought of lye and baking soda reacting on my skin.... acetic acid and h20 are both things I keep handy. I do brush dry chemicals off as much as i can in case of an accident... what I do first is i flash some vinegar on whatever area was exposed to the lye solution, halting the exothermic reaction and the burning sensation on my skin....then i quickly follow that with as much cold water as I can until its good to go...

I think that if you were to reverse it and ad water first, it is just going to make the lye solution present over a greater surface area of your skin...even if the water dilutes the lye solution that is on the skin, I think its still present and activated... which is why I use the acetic acid first.

I have got lye solution in my belly-button (dont ask lol)... which SUCKED...vinegar is your frienddddd

 

[soapbuddy]

I use lots and lots of water first to help dilute it as much as possible. I know of one person on a Yahoo group that got a serious lye burn because she reached for vinegar first.

 

[ycartf]

I kind of fall at a split decision... I **** sure am not gettin baking soda near my skin just due to the scary thought of lye and baking soda reacting on my skin

Let me clear up something about the baking soda comment ... lol. I was using my example (from work) of baking soda (alkali) being applied to spilt battery acid and the "fizzing" reaction you get from it - to describe an acid/base reaction. I was in no way saying baking soda (although a very weak alkali) should be used to handle a strong alkali exposure ... it would not help at all ... I did not mean to confuse anyone.

Hey everyone do what works for you. I was just sharing what makes sense chemically and physiologically (including the opinion of an ER physician) and that a chemical reaction is not ideal on the skin. We (Fire Dept. HazMat Team) never neutralize any chemicals on our skin or even on our Class A encapsulated entry suits, and are taught it is destructive to the skin and will worsen degradation of the suits. We are trained to use gross removal, mass dilution, and then a regular cleansing (usually with some regular soap/detergent - not the neutralizing agent). The only time we allow a neutralization reaction to occur is when we are wanting to balance/neutralize some captured wastewater/runoff/spill to lessen the impact on the environment, and the reaction is taking place on the dirt, in a culvert, or in a disposable kiddie pool we decontaminated our dressed-out entry team in.

While I admit it is LOT different and not a totally accurate comparison AT ALL - I mentally equate neutralizing it on your skin with spilling gasoline on your skin and lighting it (worse damage) to get it off.

Have a blessed day.

 

[IanT]

to each their own


I appreciate your advice though, I am a science nut so its cool to read that type of stuff

 

[Bubbles Galore]

I also agree with using lots and lots of water first. :wink:

 

[carebear]

first water - the first rule of chemical spills (non-toxic ones, anyway) is DILUTE DILUTE DILUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and as someone who had a lye (KOH) burn treated immediately with vinegar I can tell you DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh my BOB the burning was unbearable - WAY worse than the KOH part.
The reaction of the vinegar + the caustic CREATES HEAT as in BURNS YOU AND DAMAGES YOU AND IS NOT A GOOD THING. Plus vinegar STINGS like a mofo.

For on skin - WATER WATER WATER.

If it's an oil-lye mix, I then wash with soap and water to help break up the oils which may be trapping lye against the skin - but I'm not sure that I recommend that.

For counters and floors - whatever you choose is fine by me.

 

[tincanac]

I think that scene in "fight club" where he says something to the effect of you can put water on it and make it worse or you put on vinegar and neutralise it - is the reason behind the vinegar/water confusion. I reckon a water and vinegar mix could be a good compromise - any thoughts on that???? It's good to hear from an ER physician though.

 

[ycartf]

I think that scene in "fight club" where he says something to the effect of you can put water on it and make it worse or you put on vinegar and neutralise it - is the reason behind the vinegar/water confusion.

SPOILER ALERT - Yeah, but that was a guy who we eventually find out was hallucinating and talking to/fighting with himself LOL. I see stuff all the time in movies that is grossly medically inaccurate.

I reckon a water and vinegar mix could be a good compromise - any thoughts on that????

You would get at least a reduced reaction (and reduced dilution) of the alkali - but it sounds like halfway trying to do two things to me. I rarely get any lye on me (foolishly never wear what you're "supposed to"), but when I do, it's "cool ... clear ... waaaa-ter" for me! If carebear's testimony/experience and what I have said aren't enough to convince you to use water - be a pioneer and find out for yourself - lol.

Take care everyone -

 

[hem06]

You guys can argue about it all you want, but if you get lye solution on your skin, you should rinse it with water, not vinegar. That is simple fact.

If it's on the counter, use vinegar. Watch what happens....and see if you want that to be your skin instead.

ycart, good you brought this up.

 

[heyjude]

Thanks Tracy and Carebear for that important reminder!

Jude