New Soap maker with a problem . . .

[mmishou]

Hello,
My daughter has been making soap for 12-15 years and she interested me. I made my first batch following a recipe in Kelly Cables' book for the Soap making Beginner. The basic recipe follows:
25 oz olive oil
7 oz Coconut Oil
4 oz Lye
12 oz H2O (i used 10.8 oz for a harder bar)
0.5 oz each patchouli and ylang ylang oils for scent)
The result was amazing. I was very happy with the soap and wanted to make more so I doubled the recipe and the soap never hardened. It had the consistency of lumpy mashed potatoes. Doing some research, I used a soap calculator and realized that the amount of oil I used required 9.86 oz of lye not just 8 if I doubled the original quantities. I rebatched the soap and using a solution of 2 oz lye in 20 0z H2O, I got the batch to a medium trace. After pouring it into my molds and wrapping it up on a heating pad, it still looks like it will never harden.

I guess I had beginner's luck on the first batch and I'm learning the hard way on the second. SO I joined here for some support and guidance. Do you have any suggestions based on my report? Should I wait, try to turn this into liquid hand soap, or pitch it out and start fresh.

Looking forward to learning what you think!

MCM

 

[Vicki C]

Hello,
My daughter has been making soap for 12-15 years and she interested me. I made my first batch following a recipe in Kelly Cables' book for the Soap making Beginner. The basic recipe follows:
25 oz olive oil
7 oz Coconut Oil
4 oz Lye
12 oz H2O (i used 10.8 oz for a harder bar)
0.5 oz each patchouli and ylang ylang oils for scent)
The result was amazing. I was very happy with the soap and wanted to make more so I doubled the recipe and the soap never hardened. It had the consistency of lumpy mashed potatoes. Doing some research, I used a soap calculator and realized that the amount of oil I used required 9.86 oz of lye not just 8 if I doubled the original quantities. I rebatched the soap and using a solution of 2 oz lye in 20 0z H2O, I got the batch to a medium trace. After pouring it into my molds and wrapping it up on a heating pad, it still looks like it will never harden.

I guess I had beginner's luck on the first batch and I'm learning the hard way on the second. SO I joined here for some support and guidance. Do you have any suggestions based on my report? Should I wait, try to turn this into liquid hand soap, or pitch it out and start fresh.

Looking forward to learning what you think!

MCM

Welcome to the forum!
It’s very helpful to use a calculator for soap - I use soapcalc - always recommended even if you have a recipe. Eight ounces of NaOH should have been fine, when I run your numbers 9.86 ounces of lye looks high. You’ll be left with extra lye at those numbers. It’s not hardening because of the 20 ounces of water - why so much water with the rebatch?
I would toss this batch - it’s going to be lye heavy and gloppy for a long time. If you wanted to salvage it you could use a calculator to add more oil back in and rebatch again, just be prepared for a long wait due to all the water.
Liquid soap is made with potassium hydroxide rather than sodium hydroxide so that’s not a route to pursue. Also, you might want to refine that recipe - search on this forum for “basic trinity of oils” or “good starter recipe”.
Best of luck!

 

[DeeAnna]

The amounts of NaOH you've used are way off for everything you've done.

The original recipe with only 4 oz NaOH will make soap with around 15% superfat, which is way higher than I'd use for this blend of fats. It will make a skin-safe soap, but it's not going to be a nice soap with that much excess fat.

The second doubled recipe using a total of 64 oz fats has around -6% excess lye. Then you added even more NaOH to drive the excess lye even higher. Not sure why you did that. This amount of excess lye will never cure out. Especially since you're a beginner, there's little advantage to trying to "fix" this soap. Best to cut your losses and start fresh.

You say you're using a soap recipe calculator, so I'm puzzled why the NaOH weights are so out of whack.

Also did you follow someone's tutorial for rebatching? That's a lot of added water for a rebatch. It's closer to what I'd do when "salting out" soap instead, which is an entirely different process.

My suggestion is to discard the lye heavy second batch -- and follow Vicki's advice. ALso give serious thought to REDUCING the batch size. YOu used 2 pounds (32 oz) fats in the first batch which makes about 8 bars of soap. Then you doubled that to make about 16 bars. So 24 bars of soap, most of which isn't safe for use on skin. That's a lot of resources for soap that's of marginal quality. Why not make smaller batches -- maybe 16 oz (500 grams) -- while you're learning???

 

[Lather]

Welcome to the forum.

 

[mmishou]

Welcome to the forum!
It’s very helpful to use a calculator for soap - I use soapcalc - always recommended even if you have a recipe. Eight ounces of NaOH should have been fine, when I run your numbers 9.86 ounces of lye looks high. You’ll be left with extra lye at those numbers. It’s not hardening because of the 20 ounces of water - why so much water with the rebatch?
I would toss this batch - it’s going to be lye heavy and gloppy for a long time. If you wanted to salvage it you could use a calculator to add more oil back in and rebatch again, just be prepared for a long wait due to all the water.
Liquid soap is made with potassium hydroxide rather than sodium hydroxide so that’s not a route to pursue. Also, you might want to refine that recipe - search on this forum for “basic trinity of oils” or “good starter recipe”.
Best of luck!

Hi,

I actually didn't use 20 oz of H2O in the rebatch. That was the amount of water I used to dissolve 2 oz of lye. Then from that lye water I added enough to my soap in the slow cooker to get to a trace. I probably used a third of that solution, so approx 6.5 oz (2/3 oz lye for a total of roughly 8.670z lye) in the batch). So thanks for all the input, but the different numbers are confusing. I think I have to just start over. I hate the thought of throwing all this soap out, so if there are any suggestions for using it or salvaging it, I would appreciate it.

 

[Vicki C]

Hmmm… ok. That’s not really a safe way to add lye - better to have a set amount than to try to add until you see trace.
One way to salvage would be to salt it out - as @DeeAnna mentioned above. She has an excellent tutorial here. Salting-out soap | Soapy Stuff

 

[TheGecko]

Hello,
My daughter has been making soap for 12-15 years and she interested me. I made my first batch following a recipe in Kelly Cables' book for the Soap making Beginner. The basic recipe follows:

The result was amazing. I was very happy with the soap and wanted to make more so I doubled the recipe and the soap never hardened. It had the consistency of lumpy mashed potatoes. Doing some research, I used a soap calculator and realized that the amount of oil I used required 9.86 oz of lye not just 8 if I doubled the original quantities. I rebatched the soap and using a solution of 2 oz lye in 20 0z H2O, I got the batch to a medium trace. After pouring it into my molds and wrapping it up on a heating pad, it still looks like it will never harden.

I guess I had beginner's luck on the first batch and I'm learning the hard way on the second. SO I joined here for some support and guidance. Do you have any suggestions based on my report? Should I wait, try to turn this into liquid hand soap, or pitch it out and start fresh.

First of all, why would you not ask your daughter for a recipe and/or advise? Had you done so you would have discovered three things:

1) Never, ever...use a recipe from anywhere without running it through a Soap Calculator. In order to get the amount of water/lye in the recipe, I had to go with a 25% Lye Concentration and 15% SuperFat. Even you reduced the water for a 27% Lye Concentration (more about that below), not sure how 'amazing' it was...it would have still been soft and sticky and taken six to nine months to cure properly.

2) Never, ever...change recipes unless you know what you are doing...and you don't. Doubling the recipe should have worked, but since it didn't, it means that you did something wrong to begin with and then you compounded the error by NOT knowing how to use a Soap Calculator because when I doubled the recipe, I got 7.94oz of NaOH. And then you compounded the error even further by mixing up some made up Lye Solution and then adding part of it?!?

3) Start small with maybe a 16oz total batch weight. No color, no scent.

The only thing you can do with the soap is toss it. You don't have the experience or the knowledge to attempt a second rebatch to counter that this an uneven lye-heavy soap.

 

[mmishou]

First of all, why would you not ask your daughter for a recipe and/or advise? Had you done so you would have discovered three things:

1) Never, ever...use a recipe from anywhere without running it through a Soap Calculator. In order to get the amount of water/lye in the recipe, I had to go with a 25% Lye Concentration and 15% SuperFat. Even you reduced the water for a 27% Lye Concentration (more about that below), not sure how 'amazing' it was...it would have still been soft and sticky and taken six to nine months to cure properly.

2) Never, ever...change recipes unless you know what you are doing...and you don't. Doubling the recipe should have worked, but since it didn't, it means that you did something wrong to begin with and then you compounded the error by NOT knowing how to use a Soap Calculator because when I doubled the recipe, I got 7.94oz of NaOH. And then you compounded the error even further by mixing up some made up Lye Solution and then adding part of it?!?

3) Start small with maybe a 16oz total batch weight. No color, no scent.

The only thing you can do with the soap is toss it. You don't have the experience or the knowledge to attempt a second rebatch to counter that this an uneven lye-heavy soap.

Well thank you! I feel thoroughly scolded and several of your assumptions, comments, and calculations are at odds with what actually occurred. One of the hazards of belonging to a group like this is there is always an "expert" who wants to preach rather than teach. I take it I don't have to explain which category I place you in. All sarcasm aside, I did consult with my daughter and as I said, my first batch, following the Cable book recipe was amazing. I discounted the water 10% following a conversation with the aforementioned daughter and the results were great, nice hard bars, that are curing nicely and test bars lather up well, are creamy, and feel good on the skin. In the second batch, I admit to one mistake to start with . . . I doubled the recipe (thinking like a baker) without consulting daughter, soap calculator, or other expert. I did not "make up" the Lye Solution. I found instructions for rebatching the soap as follows: Use 2 0z of lye to 20 oz of H20 and add small amounts of that solution to the melted soap until the desired consistency is reached. You are correct about one thing: I didn't know enough to make that up on my own. I followed instructions I found online for rebatching soft soap. I'm not exactly sure how "not know how to use a soap calculator" figures in. I can read, follow instructions, and interpret the results of plugging numbers into a calculator. I stand by the numbers I got, and for your information. others have weighed in and come up with numbers different from mine or yours, so go figure. Doubling the recipe should have worked, according to my daughter, you and my own research. I don't mind saying that I made a mistake somewhere, though I'm at a loss to figure out where, one of the reasons I sought help here. I do take umbrage at being spoken to like an idiot. Amateur Yes! Idiot, NO! There were helpful tidbits in your scolding: 1. Use a recipe and check it in a calculator, 2. Don't change it without checking a calculator, 3. Seek advice from "teachers", 4. Continue to research and read and maybe even experiment even as an amateur, 5. Your reference to the "salting out" process was actually very interesting and while i don't think I'm ready to attempt it, it is interesting chemistry.

So, all that aside, I'm am not dissuaded by your preachy rudeness and I will continue my journey as a fledgling soap maker, and as such, a piece of advise to you. You may be the expert and have years of experience. You are a poor teacher! Next time, try sharing your expertise without rude and condescending comments Serious students don't fail to learn because they're stupid. They fail to learn
because their teachers are incompetent.

Best Wishes

P.S. I'm not the only one in this forum whose soap won't harden . . . perhaps they're all as stupid as you think I am!!!!

Hmmm… ok. That’s not really a safe way to add lye - better to have a set amount than to try to add until you see trace.
One way to salvage would be to salt it out - as @DeeAnna mentioned above. She has an excellent tutorial here. Salting-out soap | Soapy Stuff

Thanks for your comments. They are helpful and the "Salting Out" process is interesting, I'm not quite ready for that. I may rebatch it once more or figure out another use for what I have, but I'm not quite ready to throw it out. More reading, research and advice from qualified teacher experts is in order.

Thank you!

 

[Shelley D]

Well thank you! I feel thoroughly scolded and several of your assumptions, comments, and calculations are at odds with what actually occurred. One of the hazards of belonging to a group like this is there is always an "expert" who wants to preach rather than teach. I take it I don't have to explain which category I place you in. All sarcasm aside, I did consult with my daughter and as I said, my first batch, following the Cable book recipe was amazing. I discounted the water 10% following a conversation with the aforementioned daughter and the results were great, nice hard bars, that are curing nicely and test bars lather up well, are creamy, and feel good on the skin. In the second batch, I admit to one mistake to start with . . . I doubled the recipe (thinking like a baker) without consulting daughter, soap calculator, or other expert. I did not "make up" the Lye Solution. I found instructions for rebatching the soap as follows: Use 2 0z of lye to 20 oz of H20 and add small amounts of that solution to the melted soap until the desired consistency is reached. You are correct about one thing: I didn't know enough to make that up on my own. I followed instructions I found online for rebatching soft soap. I'm not exactly sure how "not know how to use a soap calculator" figures in. I can read, follow instructions, and interpret the results of plugging numbers into a calculator. I stand by the numbers I got, and for your information. others have weighed in and come up with numbers different from mine or yours, so go figure. Doubling the recipe should have worked, according to my daughter, you and my own research. I don't mind saying that I made a mistake somewhere, though I'm at a loss to figure out where, one of the reasons I sought help here. I do take umbrage at being spoken to like an idiot. Amateur Yes! Idiot, NO! There were helpful tidbits in your scolding: 1. Use a recipe and check it in a calculator, 2. Don't change it without checking a calculator, 3. Seek advice from "teachers", 4. Continue to research and read and maybe even experiment even as an amateur, 5. Your reference to the "salting out" process was actually very interesting and while i don't think I'm ready to attempt it, it is interesting chemistry.

So, all that aside, I'm am not dissuaded by your preachy rudeness and I will continue my journey as a fledgling soap maker, and as such, a piece of advise to you. You may be the expert and have years of experience. You are a poor teacher! Next time, try sharing your expertise without rude and condescending comments Serious students don't fail to learn because they're stupid. They fail to learn
because their teachers are incompetent.

Best Wishes

P.S. I'm not the only one in this forum whose soap won't harden . . . perhaps they're all as stupid as you think I am!!!!


Thanks for your comments. They are helpful and the "Salting Out" process is interesting, I'm not quite ready for that. I may rebatch it once more or figure out another use for what I have, but I'm not quite ready to throw it out. More reading, research and advice from qualified teacher experts is in order.

Thank you!

Well, you kinda set yourself up for it, as I was think all the same things. My first thought was, why didn't you do this under the tutelage of your daughter since she has 12-15 yrs experience? But then, we don't know the circumstances so on to the next issue: you posted as new soap maker with a problem, stated you just joined the forum to solve said problem ~ did you first search the forum for answers? Did you notice that for every question about problems our experienced soapers always say we need more details, even details about what exactly you entered into the soap calculator? There are so many variables that could affect the end product it can be maddening for people who are learning, like me (only 2 years experience and I've learned my home state, FL, can affect soap making, thanks to humidity). So while everyone else was trying to be polite by ignoring the elephant in the room, you can't feign offense when someone puts it to you straight. I have been in your shoes, and have had a few point blank responses in this forum because the rules are unique to making soap. Period. Not baking. Not crossing over from making body oil blends (). Just for making soap. So learn the science behind it ~ I recommend the book Scientific Soapmaking.
Another thing I noticed from your random notes in your posts was it seems you did research but grabbed random pieces of information to fit what you wanted to do (?). There is cold process soap, hot process soap, liquid soap ~ each one has its own set of rules and procedures so you need to be specific about which soap you are making so we know which rules you are following. Don't get mad, just be more specific ~ provide more details so we can provide better answers.

 

[AliensrReal]

Like @DeeAnna mentioned, the soap is very lye heavy and will never cure out. I don’t know if doing a second rebatch to add more oils would work. It could but with the amount of water you’ve added it will take several months to harden and just isn’t worth it in my opinion. Yeah, it sucks when you have to throw a batch out, but I would rather do that than have mediocre soap.

 

[mmishou]

Like @DeeAnna mentioned. The soap is very lye heavy and will never cure out. I don’t know if doing a second rebatch to add more oils would work. It could but with the amount of water you’ve added it will take several months to harden and just isn’t worth it in my opinion. Yeah, it sucks when you have to throw a batch out, but I would rather do that than have mediocre soap.

Thanks for your comments. I didn't understand how this batch was "lye heavy" from the start since the doubled recipe seemed to have the right quantities "on paper." But, after rebatching, I get it. As much as I hate to waste the materials from the rebatch, I guess it's time to move on and start over. I don't want to add more oil in the hope that it will work, and you're right: I don't want mediocre soap.

Well, you kinda set yourself up for it, as I was think all the same things. My first thought was, why didn't you do this under the tutelage of your daughter since she has 12-15 yrs experience? But then, we don't know the circumstances so on to the next issue: you posted as new soap maker with a problem, stated you just joined the forum to solve said problem ~ did you first search the forum for answers? Did you notice that for every question about problems our experienced soapers always say we need more details, even details about what exactly you entered into the soap calculator? There are so many variables that could affect the end product it can be maddening for people who are learning, like me (only 2 years experience and I've learned my home state, FL, can affect soap making, thanks to humidity). So while everyone else was trying to be polite by ignoring the elephant in the room, you can't feign offense when someone puts it to you straight. I have been in your shoes, and have had a few point blank responses in this forum because the rules are unique to making soap. Period. Not baking. Not crossing over from making body oil blends (). Just for making soap. So learn the science behind it ~ I recommend the book Scientific Soapmaking.
Another thing I noticed from your random notes in your posts was it seems you did research but grabbed random pieces of information to fit what you wanted to do (?). There is cold process soap, hot process soap, liquid soap ~ each one has its own set of rules and procedures so you need to be specific about which soap you are making so we know which rules you are following. Don't get mad, just be more specific ~ provide more details so we can provide better answers.

I appreciate your input and thanks for the reference to the book. I am interested in the science and the chemistry. I certainly don't mind "point blank" suggestions when presented with a modicum of politeness. My daughter admits that after all the years of making soap, she can still have a batch fail and won't know what happened. Weather could definitely be a factor for her in Alaska. I wasn't really grabbing random bits, I was really trying to understand how to rebatch the soap. I should have started here rather than strike out on my own. Lessons learned. Thank you.

 

[Michelle0803]

Attacking the very people you are asking for help is not a good look. Don't do it here.

We are extremely willing to help people who ask.

All of the advise you got here is excellent and offered from a place of kindness AND safety.

Read those last 2 word again. AND SAFETY!

Making soap is NOT baking. For your safety and the safety of everyone using your soap, do not treat it as such.

Starting out with small batches allows you
1. To learn how ingredients behave together during the process
2. To decide how you feel about the soap after the cure
3. To learn about water discounts and superfat
4. To save money when you ruin a batch and have to throw it away.
5. Have a collection of soap to use, try and share.

Do not trust a recipe from anyone without running it through a soap calculator. @DeeAnna has been making soap forever and one of our resident experts here and I would still run a recipe from her through a soap calculator. Not because I don't trust her but because I want to verify that there will be no problems.

Best of luck to you on your soaping journey.

 

[mmishou]

Sorry, I didn't feel like I was attacking anyone, I actually felt the tone coming from the person I responded t was very condescending , not offered out of kindness, and I responded to that. You will find that I am here to learn and will take advise from any when offer in support and kindness. Others, including you, have offered support and instruction, and it is much appreciated.

thanks

 

[AliensrReal]

It’s okay. It’s hard to read a person’s mood on the internet.

 

[TheGecko]

blah blah blah blah blah

Wow...really? You might want to take a good look in the mirror sometime or at least go back over what you wrote before you attack someone because I can only respond to what YOU wrote...nothing more, nothing less. Not once did I say or infer that you were an idiot or that you were stupid. Those are YOUR words, not mine. Mine were that you didn't know what you were doing, that you lacked experience and knowledge. Sorry (not) I didn't wrap that up in a pretty enough package, but given that you appeared to be too dense to accept the advice of an actual expect (not me), I figured a little plain speaking was in order.

You screwed up. It happens. You pick yourself back up, take the opportunity to learn and move on down the road and hopefully...become a better soap maker.

 

[Jorah]

You will find that I am here to learn and will take advise from any when offer in support and kindness. Others, including you, have offered support and instruction, and it is much appreciated.

Welcome to the forum. I started only last April 1, April Fool's day and symbolically correct for my journey; I got several batches in before my first one went sideways, and those early successes led me to think I was a born natural soaper; it was sobering to come to my senses and back down to making more cautiously-sized batches of 500 grams, so I'm very empathetic to what you might be going through, emotion-wise.

After I got over my embarrassment of that first humbling batch, I got even more careful with my planning, but I've still managed to make errors (for instance: a recent batch with 6x as much scent as I was supposed to use...).

Here's a portrait of me with my first failed batch...

 

[Vicki C]

Welcome to the forum. I started only last April 1, April Fool's day and symbolically correct for my journey; I got several batches in before my first one went sideways, and those early successes led me to think I was a born natural soaper; it was sobering to come to my senses and back down to making more cautiously-sized batches of 500 grams, so I'm very empathetic to what you might be going through, emotion-wise.

After I got over my embarrassment of that first humbling batch, I got even more careful with my planning, but I've still managed to make errors (for instance: a recent batch with 6x as much scent as I was supposed to use...).

Here's a portrait of me with my first failed batch...

View attachment 75375

Haha good one Jorah
I am a full time soapmaker. I may not have put in 10,000 hours but I’m getting there. And I make mistakes
ALL
….THE
…….TIME.
Thats why I appreciate this crew. The hive mind has lots to offer, and I’m grateful.

 

[mmishou]

Jorah and Vicki,

Thanks for your support and a good laugh. As I mentioned in another post my daughter, who has 12-15 years of experience said to me, "Dad i still screw up and don't have the foggiest why!" I'm sure this won't be the last time I ruin a batch, but I'll know next time I can indeed find the knowledge and encouragement I'm seeking here!

 

[Shelley D]

Welcome to the forum. I started only last April 1, April Fool's day and symbolically correct for my journey; I got several batches in before my first one went sideways, and those early successes led me to think I was a born natural soaper; it was sobering to come to my senses and back down to making more cautiously-sized batches of 500 grams, so I'm very empathetic to what you might be going through, emotion-wise.

After I got over my embarrassment of that first humbling batch, I got even more careful with my planning, but I've still managed to make errors (for instance: a recent batch with 6x as much scent as I was supposed to use...).

Here's a portrait of me with my first failed batch...

View attachment 75375

I'm about to give up on trying new things (like butter rich recipes) and go back to olive oil recipes ~ at least I know how they behave! Trial & error, over & over (unless you really truly grasp the science of soap making!)

 

[Shelley D]

I would like to add that if you haven't already decided on your next recipe, maybe try Zany's no slime castile (Thread 'Zany's no slime castile' Zany's no slime castile) or start with the holy grail of soap recipes, which is basically a coconut/ palm/olive and a little bit of castor oil, usually in an 31%/32%/32% and castor oil at 5%. The holy grail can be tweaked a bit to your preference but if you do some research (in the forum and online) it supposedly has an ideal balance of everything for the perfect bar of soap ~ so it should give you a good starting point for a balanced soap recipe. You will still have to run either one through a soap calculator and if you have questions about what you should enter or which options you should change or select, feel free to ask. We are happy to answer questions and provide links to discussions in the forum for more details