Is doing M&P Cheating? Like a Box Cake Mix?

[bbrown]

I was continuing with the poster's analogy ... either way I like bread ... and cakes. Cake mix works ... and someone posted something about a chef that uses a cake mix and dresses it up. That's a perfect analogy. You can either heat and pour a bar (simple) or make something really wonderful.

I think we all agree they are different, and having different tools to use is what makes craftsmanship so interesting, rewarding, and effective.

All that being said, being called a snob because one points out that there is a difference between the two is pretty confrontational. Dogs are not cats, does that make me a cat snob? (There, try poke holes in that analogy! )

See, I think the above bolded text is the kind of thing can sow a bit of discord among soapers because it does carry just a *smidge* of snark - or snobbery. I can see it. Or do I have it wrong? Just because you are doing MP does not mean that you are not making something "really wonderful." See what I mean? ;-)

 

[hmlove1218]

See, I think the above bolded text is the kind of thing can sow a bit of discord among soapers because it does carry just a *smidge* of snark - or snobbery. I can see it. Or do I have it wrong? Just because you are doing MP does not mean that you are not making something "really wonderful." See what I mean? ;-)

I took that to mean a soap that wasn't complex design wise. Like a simple CP might only be one color, uncolored, or unfragranced. A simple MP would be similar. Not a complex bar, just melt down the base, add in one color and fragrance if desired and pour. I don't think there was any snark or snobbery about it. Some soaps are simple, some soaps arent. It doesn't matter whether it's MP, HP, or CP.

I myself can only make what I would classify as simple MP. I've tried to design it not to be, but it always seems to melt together. CP, on the other had, I can make much more complex much more easily.

 

[bbrown]

I took that to mean a soap that wasn't complex design wise. Like a simple CP might only be one color, uncolored, or unfragranced. A simple MP would be similar. Not a complex bar, just melt down the base, add in one color and fragrance if desired and pour. I don't think there was any snark or snobbery about it. Some soaps are simple, some soaps arent. It doesn't matter whether it's MP, HP, or CP.

I myself can only make what I would classify as simple MP. I've tried to design it not to be, but it always seems to melt together. CP, on the other had, I can make much more complex much more easily.

Thanks! And you could be right - I hope so!

 

[LBussy]

Yes, that's exactly correct.

I often find it is easier to get along if you read a post with the assumption that the poster did not intend for it to be snarky - but rather was trying to convey a thought/opinion.

There is no doubt in my mind that some of the most beautiful pieces of art I have seen in the soap world have their base all or in part in M&P soap. If however all you (anyone) are doing is making a rectangular bar of soap by heating and pouring it; you have no more created anything than you have baked something by slicing off a piece of bread from a loaf.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I don't think anyone can argue that by simply melting and pouring a base, the soaper has done anything themselves to create something wonderful. The base itself has all the wonder already there. You might as well just slice a chunk off from the base right out of the pack and then claim excellence. That's not being snobbish - we are going from the analogy of using a cake mix to that of simply putting a delivered pizza on a plate and saying 'I made pizza'.

But when people take that base and do really original and interesting things with it, taking it beyond what it was and creating a product - that is a thing of wonder.

 

[snappyllama]

To me the wording folks tend to get hung-up on is "handmade" when the difference really is "scratch". I make CP from scratch (implying the recipe is put together by me). I hand-make the designs in it when I pour. I hand-make the designs in M&P too. Both are handmade.

Baking analogy continuation time: I hand-make a gingerbread house. If I made the gingerbread from flour and such, it's from scratch. If I bought the gingerbread and artfully modify and assemble it, it's still hand-made - just not from scratch. One way of doing it doesn't make me a better/lesser gingerbread-house-maker. I just don't beat myself up about wobbly gingerbread houses when I make it from scratch and prefer how my scratch recipes work for me.

No need to become riled up about either process. Do what you like. Let other folks do what they like.

Dorky Video Time:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_26FOHoaC78[/ame]

 

[bbrown]

To me the wording folks tend to get hung-up on is "handmade" when the difference really is "scratch". I make CP from scratch (implying the recipe is put together by me). I hand-make the designs in it when I pour. I hand-make the designs in M&P too. Both are handmade.

Baking analogy continuation time: I hand-make a gingerbread house. If I made the gingerbread from flour and such, it's from scratch. If I bought the gingerbread and artfully modify and assemble it, it's still hand-made - just not from scratch. One way of doing it doesn't make me a better/lesser gingerbread-house-maker. I just don't beat myself up about wobbly gingerbread houses when I make it from scratch and prefer how my scratch recipes work for me.

No need to become riled up about either process. Do what you like. Let other folks do what they like.

Dorky Video Time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_26FOHoaC78

I just want you to know that I laughed out loud at your video. So awesome!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I agree, snappy.

But if you take pre-made gingerbread or make your own, you still have to make it in to the house shape - you made the house itself, whether or not you made the gingerbread. A pile of gingerbread is not a gingerbread house until you shape it that way.

If you buy a pre-made gingerbread house and decorate it, you didn't make the gingerbread house.

The m&p bases ARE soap. You could use them as they are with nothing added. The soap itself is already there.

I think that is maybe the wording issue - soap is not beautiful bars with wonderful scents. Soap is a salt of fatty acids - if you are buying and starting with a salt of fatty acids then you are not making soap. The soap is already made.

Again, I'm not saying m&p is a second class citizen, but it is also not a process where you make soap, not by any means

 

[LBussy]

It's funny how often I've thought of this thread ... I greatly dislike not being able to effectively convey my intent.

I thought I would share another analogy: If Leonardo da Vinci intended to make art today he would go buy paints and canvas at the store. The end goal is the art. Nobody would think him less an artist if his paints came in tubes marked ""M Grahm" or "Gamblin." If his end goal was the paint he would continue now as he had to do then, grinding pigments (or having his apprentices do that) and mixing in linseed oil.

I intend to make soap (paint) and that is my end goal. I cannot take someone else's soap and call it my own no matter how many times I put it in the microwave. If I intended to make a piece of art out of soap, starting with the soap is completely reasonable. Therefore I think the people who make pieces of art out of soap CREATE just as artists do, whether it's M&P or they craft the base themselves. If rather the craftsperson intends to make a specific type of soap, they must necessarily start with the raw ingredients.

A person may certainly choose to make the bases and then the artwork, from raw materials. I don't think there's anyone here that would disagree that this would entail more or at least different work. Likewise I don't think there's anyone that thinks if a soap artist uses a M&P base that they are cheating.

Put another way: I think Jesus would use the Internet if he were alive today. His WORDS were what had value.

 

[grumpy_owl]

I think we're getting hung up on analogies, which are by nature inaccurate. There is no true analogy for MP vs. CP. As many have posted earlier, as long as the soaper or brand name on the label is up-front about the process that went into making the bar, the customer can decide for him or herself whether it's worth buying and using. Both processes result in very different forms of soap art, in the end. There are things we can't do with CP that we can with MP, and the other way around. (Side note: I actually forgot how to MP, my first love, and tried swirling a pink-and-white loaf, ending up with lame layers. Don't do what I did, kids! Stay in school!)
The trouble with the quote is that it can be read as "you can either heat and pour (pffft, MP) OR make something really wonderful (CP rules and is always wonderful by default)." I don't think that's what LBussy meant to say, by any means. I believe she left off the "either way." Let's all go back to our corners and make some soap.

 

[LBussy]

I don't really have any skin in the game either way. People are free to incorporate unicorn tears or not in their creations. What's important is that I have it on very good authority that LBussy is a "he" not a "she."

 

[grumpy_owl]

Oops, sorry, my good sir. <runs off to find a supplier for unicorn tears...>

 

[LBussy]

Statistically, it was a good guess. :razz:

 

[dixiedragon]

I just can't support using unicorn tears. Factory unicorn farming is animal cruelty.

One of my favorite parts of CP is the surprise factor. I'm never 100% sure how the oils, colors, heat, fragrance, etc are going to react. I LOVE slicing my log and seeing what happened!

Currently I have a GORGEOUS purple soap that sadly, stains wash clothes. I need to chop it up and make confettie soap with it, but it's SO PRETTY. *sigh*

I have once or twice seen people selling MP that they clearly just melted, added color and fragrance to and dumped in a mold from Hobby Lobby. I will admit that irks me. But I would never go harrass them about it. I'll admit, I do trash talk them a bit to whoever I'm at the craft fair with. I also trash talk the people who make CP with 100% soybean oil and charge $4 a bar for it. And I also trash talk the lotion from B&BW.

 

[bbrown]

Alrighty then.

 

[Dorymae]

To me it is simple. CP or HP you are making homemade soap. M&P you are hand designing soap. They are different animals and one is no worse than the other.

 

[Khanjari]

I am an MP soaper..... i don't mind of what opinion one holds as long as I am giving my 100% in whatever I am doing. .....

But tell me one thing, the people who say that I make and sell my own candles..... what do they do? Same thing.... melt a block of wax, add color, fragrance and wick and put it in the mold..... you are still not making your own wax!!!!!!!

Is it not the same as MP?.And they are not looked down upon like the MP soap crafters!!!!!!! And like I said again, I don't care what anyone thinks as long as I am giving my 100%. If I find out that a fellow soaper at a craft fair is asking me questions about my soap, I take pride and tell them that they are MP.

Please explain! !!!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

It is different - you made that clear in the description of what they do to make them:

A candle is wax (or the like) with a wick. Colour and scent are optional. But you can't just melt wax, set it in a form and call it a candle - you have to add the wick. With M&P soap, you start off with soap - you can melt it and mould it up and add nothing new in to it at all and at the end you will have soap. That is the difference between the two.

If you buy an M&P base, your soap is not hand made soap (by you, at any rate). To reiterate, this is not looking down on M&P soapers, it is just a plain fact.

Another example - if I make a sandwich, I don't need to make the bread - a sandwich is made WITH bread, but just bread on it's own is not a sandwich. Different things need to be combined to make a sandwich, but I don't have to make each of those things myself in order to make the sandwich. Now, if I take a ham sandwich and add in some mayonnaise, I have not made a sandwich - I had a sandwich to start with. I might have made it better (unless you don't like mayo) but I can't say that I made the sandwich.

 

[LBussy]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water ...

 

[Dorymae]

I am an MP soaper..... i don't mind of what opinion one holds as long as I am giving my 100% in whatever I am doing. .....

But tell me one thing, the people who say that I make and sell my own candles..... what do they do? Same thing.... melt a block of wax, add color, fragrance and wick and put it in the mold..... you are still not making your own wax!!!!!!!

Is it not the same as MP?.And they are not looked down upon like the MP soap crafters!!!!!!! And like I said again, I don't care what anyone thinks as long as I am giving my 100%. If I find out that a fellow soaper at a craft fair is asking me questions about my soap, I take pride and tell them that they are MP.

Please explain! !!!

M&P base is already soap. Wax is not yet a candle. You can cut a piece of M&P base and go wash with it. You can not cut a piece of wax and light it ( without it becoming a mess and possibly lighting your house on fire at the same time)

I think the designs made with M&P are beautiful and I dabble in it myself but it is not making soap, it is designing soap.