Compeating with Dawn

[Kansas Farm Girl]

question - when you say "those of you who have soft water".... do you mean naturally soft or soft via a water softener, or does it matter?

 

[melstan775]

Yes, but some of us have very hard water and soap just doesn't work well for dishes and laundry. I have tried making my own with homemade liquid soap and cp soap and the grease and soil does not emulsify like it does with a detergent. For those of you who have soft water, it is a great idea to use your own liquid soap or cp soap for dishes and laundry.

This is where surfactants come in handy. They actually move dirt up and away. You could try a high sudsing soap like coconut and castor, throw a tablespoon of sodium laureth sulfate (which is way gentler then it's counterpart), and some sort of emulsifiser, which will bind the soap solution to the grease on the stove, and then you can just wipe it away.

 

[JamieH]

Ok, made the liquid soap, did NOT go smoothly. Being knew, I likely bit off more than I should have. Regardless, it worked. I wanted to quite at least 3 times but persevered. It took me somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-8 hours, plus over night rest, and then another couple hours of reheat to fully saponify to tested clarity. Based on the video I was following I was expecting start to washing dishes in 3 hours. I likely will not follow the same method.

So, how does it work- My soap is very thick like honey, in fact it looks like honey. I am sure I could dilute it further however that would involve heating again, and well frankly I am just not going there. This batch and I are done! The "natural" smell is off so highly recommend using a lemon EO. The soap does bubble, but they do not last long. The dishes require a fair amount of rinsing to get the soap residue off, living in CA this is not acceptable to me. The less water the better. So I will continue the quest. Will I make liquid soap again, absolutely, just need to learn the right oils, for my hard water.

 

[CaliChan]

Ok, made the liquid soap, did NOT go smoothly. Being knew, I likely bit off more than I should have. Regardless, it worked. I wanted to quite at least 3 times but persevered. It took me somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-8 hours, plus over night rest, and then another couple hours of reheat to fully saponify to tested clarity. Based on the video I was following I was expecting start to washing dishes in 3 hours. I likely will not follow the same method.

So, how does it work- My soap is very thick like honey, in fact it looks like honey. I am sure I could dilute it further however that would involve heating again, and well frankly I am just not going there. This batch and I are done! The "natural" smell is off so highly recommend using a lemon EO. The soap does bubble, but they do not last long. The dishes require a fair amount of rinsing to get the soap residue off, living in CA this is not acceptable to me. The less water the better. So I will continue the quest. Will I make liquid soap again, absolutely, just need to learn the right oils, for my hard water.

I take it this was your first time making liquid soap?
Its a huge pain in the rear (at least to me, im always up till 4 am everytime i make it for one reason or another)
You should add some Cream of tarter to help with the bubbles, i cant remember who but they were saying it was supposed to help. which recipe did you use??

 

[Robert]

Liquid soaps are lye heavy on purpose. You add boric acid or borax to neutralize the extra lye after you dissolve the cooked soap in water. It seems to work okay, but mine needs a chance to sit longer.

Boric acid can neutralize lye, but the false rumor has gotten around that borax will as well; it can't. Borax is what you get from neutralizing boric acid with lye.

 

[Robert]

I make my own hand dish washing detergent using eco friendly surfactants, than mix that with sweet orange e.o., borax, cream of tartar and white vinegar.

Why are you using borax (an alkali/base), vinegar (an acid) and cream of tartar (amphoteric, but usually use for acidity)? It would seem you might need one of those to adjust pH, but certainly not all 3, unless you go thru some complicated recipe that requires the pH to be adjusted first one way and then another.

 

[Robert]

I'm going to assume it's to help with longer lasting bubbles. That's why it's in bubble bars.

Cream of tartar is in bubble bars as a source of acid, to produce fizz with a carbonate or bicarbonate. It doesn't make "longer lasting bubbles" in the sense of soapsuds. It makes the kind of bubbles that you get in the water (as fizz), not on top of the water (as foam). And it does that only as it's dissolving, won't work in a water-based formula.

 

[Margo]

I don't think it's worth the time and effort to make liquid soap.
I've made liquid shampoo a few times, but only for family use. I found that HP shampoo bars work best but it really burns alot if you get it into your eyes. The cause of the burning is the additives like B Panthenol, and the hydrolyzed proteins. I mean my shampoo bars are awesome, but I don't sell them any longer.
An easy way to make liquid soap for dishes or laundry detergent is to grate some castile soap and add water, Borax and Washing Soda. It's a bit slimy but it works.

 

[heartsong]

I believe just about anything handmade is superior to mass production, but we have very hard water where we live, so I've given up on handmade dish soap...sometimes it's hard to admit that you don't always have to "fix what ain't broken," so dawn is a regular at the kitchen sink.

 

[Bicycle808]

I've been making dish soap that i also use for the clothes washer. It's easy enough, but it takes foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr compared to making cp bars. I'm talking about labor time, not wait time. Even with lots of solid oils (i used coconut and soy the first time, then coconut/pal/soy the other times), it takes forever to reach trace. Like, 20 minutes. Maybe more. Then, you gotta cook it in the crockpot for like 6 hours. Then, it takes forever to dissolve.

I used this site as the basis for my endeavors: http://chickensintheroad.com/house/crafts/how-to-make-liquid-soap/ Just randomly picked it; can't say if there's better instructions out there, but these worked for me.I only sort of followed the basic recipe.

Some notes: I used PO /c i have tons of it, plus i wanna run out of PO and CO around the same time, for inventory reasons. Palm makes cloudy liquid soaps, but it works great. For some reason, clear soap is really popular with liquid soapers, and they go to heroic measures to achieve clarity, adding a lot of chemicals to help achieve this. If you care about clear soap, don't use PO. If you just want cheap, useful soap, PO is fine.

You're going to want to make your LS lye-heavy and then bring the pH down afterwards. Hard for the CP mind to accept, but that's the way it is. Yes, borax helps clarify, thicken, reduce pH, and it's a wicked strong cleanser. But, I don't like to use tons of it.

Once my soap was diluted, it was waaaay runny. Too runny. Borax helps, but so does salt. My first batch was way runny, so i tried salt on the 2nd. I kept adding salt til the viscosity was almost what i'd wanted. I did this when the LS was still hott. Big mistake; the soap from that batch got goopy when it cooled, and never lathered as well as i'd liked. (Still worked, though.) In subsequent batches, I've found that a little salt goes a long way for thickening LS.

 

[Bicycle808]

ps- the cheap liquid soap i make is way better'n Dawn. It's the only thing i've seen that removes coffee stains from ancient mugs.

 

[houseofwool]

I have not tried this yet, but a someone in a group I belong to posted this one. She swears by it. I plan to try it but have to get some KOH for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLvbOasa2qw
the recipe only is here: http://voices.yahoo.com/handmade-liquid-dish-soap-scratch-advanced-soap-8977729.html?cat=22
I have heard of others who use a straight CO in their liquid soap because of the cleaning properties.

I am so very tempted to try this. Does the soybean oil need to be HO, or can it be just the regular oil that I could purchase at the supermarket?

 

[Bicycle808]

Next time you get a buttload of NaOH from essential depot, tack on a few lbs of KOH at the same time. Save on shipping, get whatcha need... :mrgreen:

 

[angelwings2ltd]

Boric acid can neutralize lye, but the false rumor has gotten around that borax will as well; it can't. Borax is what you get from neutralizing boric acid with lye.

Sorry, but you are a little bit mis-informed---sodium tetraborate decahydrate (or Sodium Borate- for short) is the chemical name for Borax... which in its natural state is from the mineral Boron.

You do not get Borax from Boric Acid. . . You get Boric Acid from Borax.

" Boric acid is produced mainly from borate ores containing sodium or calcium by the reaction with sulfuric acid" ( and recently I saw a video on Youtube, stating that Hydrochloric acid was used.

Secondly, the rumor is TRUE... you can use Borax to neutralize excess potassium hydroxide in liquid soaps.

--- Now on another note--- You CAN make a liquid soap at a 0-% SF and NOT have the need to "neutralize". I seldomly neutralize my liquid soaps, and I usually use Borax as a thickener and water conditioner.

That's my 2 cents worth!
Angel

 

[Bicycle808]

To be fair, I've seen a lot of LS recipes online that suggest using lye excess, like @ +5%. I shoot for a zero percent and figure it's "good enough", but the theory is that commercially available KOH can be a few %pts impure,so theoretically you up the KOH to compensate.

My strategy? I just try to make some soap really quick so I can clean my pots, pans, and trousers.

 

[Robert]

Sorry, but you are a little bit mis-informed---sodium tetraborate decahydrate (or Sodium Borate- for short) is the chemical name for Borax... which in its natural state is from the mineral Boron.

You do not get Borax from Boric Acid. . . You get Boric Acid from Borax.

Commercially that's how it's made, but if you do neutralize boric acid with lye, you will make borax. That's the form it will primarily xtalize out as.

Secondly, the rumor is TRUE... you can use Borax to neutralize excess potassium hydroxide in liquid soaps.

How/why does that work? Borax isn't amphoteric, just basic; how do you neutralize alkali with more alkali?

 

[Robert]

I've been making dish soap that i also use for the clothes washer. It's easy enough, but it takes foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr compared to making cp bars. I'm talking about labor time, not wait time. Even with lots of solid oils (i used coconut and soy the first time, then coconut/pal/soy the other times), it takes forever to reach trace. Like, 20 minutes. Maybe more. Then, you gotta cook it in the crockpot for like 6 hours.

I'd suggest you speed it up by using whichever essential or fragrance oils are most problematic in terms of causing seizing when people make solid soaps. You could use alcohol, but it would take a large amount, adding expense.

 

[Bicycle808]

Interesting. It's been my experience that booze is cheaper than EOs. Also, I made some with lemon EO a bit ago, and certain plastic-based cups, pitchers, etc were really difficult to rinse sufficiently without a clinging, ghastly lemon odor. :shock: I think I'll stick to making a lot of LS on a day that I can easily multi-task for a few hours...

 

[lsg]

Cream of tartar is in bubble bars as a source of acid, to produce fizz with a carbonate or bicarbonate. It doesn't make "longer lasting bubbles" in the sense of soapsuds. It makes the kind of bubbles that you get in the water (as fizz), not on top of the water (as foam). And it does that only as it's dissolving, won't work in a water-based formula.

Robert, citric acid is most often used (not cream of tartar), along with sodium bicarbonate to create fizz in bath bombs. Cream of tartar (monopotassium salt of tartaric acid) is added to prolong the life of the bubbles. If you check the manufacturer's formulation specs. of most dishwasher and manual dishwasing detergents you will see that salts are used as a stabilizing agent. Here is a link with an example. Look on page one under "Stability and Dispensing Aids"


http://www.lawtongroup.com/resources/documents/cleaning/Dishwashing_Facts.pdf

 

[lsg]

Why are you using borax (an alkali/base), vinegar (an acid) and cream of tartar (amphoteric, but usually use for acidity)? It would seem you might need one of those to adjust pH, but certainly not all 3, unless you go thru some complicated recipe that requires the pH to be adjusted first one way and then another.

Borax is used as a water softener, vinegar is often used as a rinse agent, cream of tartar is used to prolong the suds. I don't know where you are coming from with your analysis, but this works. I got the original idea from Kitchen Chemistry with Kayla. She used borax, vinegar and cream of tartar with the surfactant mixture from Essential Wholesale. By the way she is the former formulator and owner of Essential Wholesale. If you have more questions, you might contact her for the answers. I am not a chemist. All I know is that this works.