Adding Glycerin to products, need preserved?

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Hello, this is my first post and I would like to first say I absolutely love this forum! :razz: I have been a lurker for so long and thought it was about time to make an account.

I have a question about adding Vegetable Glycerin to certain bath and body products. I have read on this forum, a couple different posts, about people saying that when Glycerin is added to things that it should be preserved with a broad spectrum preservative. I honestly never heard of this or knew this. Even though it's "water soluable", I always thought it was similar to oils being added to recipes, and it didn't need any type of additional preservation. I started trying to find information over the internet and haven't found anything either on this subject.

So my question is, does adding Glycerin need a preservative when water isn't added to a recipe? For example, I make lipgloss and bath bomb melts( a bath bomb with extra oils). In both of those products, I add probably around 10% of glycerin. From reading those posts, I'm worried if adding the glycerin could make my product "go bad" faster.:shifty:
 
Since glycerin is a humectant, it draws moisture into the product, so yep it does require a preservative when using it.
 
Hi Genny. Thanks so much for your reply. :D If I remember correctly the posts that I saw about this concern was from you stating it. I completely see your reasoning behind using a preservative since Glycerin is a humectant. I just can't find any credible information about this on the internet. I have searched all day today and have not found a recipe or anything saying that a preservative is needed when Glycerin is added to a product.

I know all the recipes I find from reputable people and companies also do not have preservatives in recipes that contain glycerin. Just for example this one.. http://www.pvsoap.com/recipe_massage_balm.htm

When making bubble bars, one of the main moistening ingredients that a lot of people use is glycerin to help keep them softer so they can be crumbled under the water. I also have not seen a recipe or anyone that makes them use a preservative either.

I guess I'm just making myself even more confused LOL! Do you happen to remember where you found or heard this info of needing to add a preservative for glycerin? Just wanting to find some credible info. Thanks for letting me pick your brain ;)
 
What Genny means Pink,is humectants draw in moisture. Where there is moisture there is water. Water is where bacteria comes from, not necessarily the glycerin or other proteins or powders used in cosmetics. You add the preservative to prevent bacterial growth, or even mold, from warm-wetness, like water clinging to stuff. If you'r going to use your products within a few days of making of them, you probbly can get away without a preservative. There is a blog about this topic... I can't think of it right off hand, but it's one they reference a lot. It's green, the girl is Australian I think, and she talks a lot about why you do this. If I find it I will post it, otherwise I am sure someone else will know it right off. :)
 
Thanks for your reply Mel. Yes I understood the whole moisture thing. Which absolutely makes sense. I've just been searching for hours on this subject for some credible info and I can't come up with anything other than what I have seen on this forum. Thanks for your help :grin:
 
you're welcome. If I find the blog I will post the link. I can't remember it off the top of my head and I Can't find it in my bookmarks just now.
 
Just because something is a humectant it doesn't mean it automatically need a preservative. Examples are also salt, sugar, clay, etc. Also, glycerine is shelf stable in itself and is also a preservative. I would doubt there would be any negative effects on bath bombs or lip balms by adding glycerine. The bombs are basically citric acid and salt, right? And the lip balm, its oils with no water, yes? I dont think adding glycerine will hurt either or necessitate a preservative. I would be very interested to see any scientific evidence to the contrary though.
 
ahhhh the Preservative debate - one more time with feeling.

Pink I must ask you. Why are you asking a question that you have already made up your mind on? The site you linked to demonstrates an amateur recipe because any bath & body maker worth their salt, or actually even knows what they are doing always creates formulations in weight rather than teaspoons and tablespoons. Those types of measurements are reserved for cooking and baking.

So yes this sounds rather snarky, but please, if you don't want to know the answer, then don't ask the question. And the answer to your question is that any product that contains added glycerin, with the exception of soap, requires a broad spectrum preservative, end of story.

Cheers
 
Hi Lindy, Could you post a link to validated information about the need to add a preservative when glycerine is added to a product? I think it could really help clarify this for anyone who reads this thread and shed some light on situations where maybe a preservative is proven to be needed with glycerine.

Here is a link to information I have found about glycerine in cosmetic products: http://www.fda.gov/iceci/inspections/inspectionguides/ucm074952.htm

In this link, the FDA states that some cosmetic products can be preserved with the addition of 10% glycerine.

I referenced this one because the OP was asking about adding 10% of a product that does not support microbial growth to other products that do not support microbial growth.

Here are two common FDA regulated over the counter drugs - Fleet Enemas and Proetz Nasal Sprays. Both of these are glycerine and water formulas meant specifically to be introduced into body cavities. Neither contain other preservatives.
 
Pink ~ I can't honestly remember exactly where I learned about it. It's been a long time. It could have been at Susan's blog http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/ which is a wealth of information about preservatives. Seriously, great info there.
Or it could have been on The Dish Forum from a few members who had their products tested, which I can't check right now because they're having some issues & are down right now. There recently was a member who tested different kinds of honey for bacteria because of so many people that use it in lip balms as a sweetener. It did indeed contain many kinds of bacteria. A lot of people ended up dropping it from their lip balms.

Also, even though PVsoaps is a reputable supplier, their recipes on there are really awful. I saw lotion recipes on there where they tell you to add several TBSPs of ingredients (milk, honey, wheat products, glycerin, etc) to 6-7 oz of premade lotion base. There is absolutely no way that the preservative in that lotion base will be able to cover all of those extras.
They also repeatedly refer to Vitamin E as a preservative, which it is not. Also saw a recipe for homemade sunscreen. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Also, I've heard from so many soapers that have premixed their powdered colorants with glycerin only to have them grow mold after a short while.

If you try the recipe from PVsoaps that you linked to, I'd use an emulsifier (at least beeswax), because without one, the glycerin absolutely will separate.
 
Lindy, I'm not really for sure why you are calling this a debate. And also stating that I "made up my mind". I believe you might of taken this post the wrong way.

The whole point of this post is because I am now unsure, so I am wanting to get some insight, not argue. Like I said, I just have not found any concrete evidence saying this other than on this forum. So that is why I am here, on this forum, to ask. I have some products that I make with glycerin in it and now I am obviously concerned if it's necessary to add a preservative now.

Also stating that I "don't want to know the answer" is completely false. As well as the "amateur" recipe you stated, was just an example of something a lot of different crafters out there might be making and not realizing if it needs a preservative or not. It was purely an example of what I am gathering everywhere. I guess I must be an amateur as well, because I have some crafted recipes that I use both weight measurements as well as volume measurments :problem: Thanks for your insight tho. And I now know you feel that a preservative does need to be used. So thank you, but I definitely could of done without the rude attitude.

Bodhi, Thanks for your replies and that link. I'm also wanting to shed some light on this as well as help others like myself that have all along not known this. :)

Genny, Thanks again for your replies. :-D And I do want to apologize if my earlier posts sounded like I was trying to debate you or being rude. I really am just wanting to find the truth to this so I can have peace at mind. I have went to that blog a lot for great info as well! I also tried getting on the The Dish Forum, and saw it was down yesterday because while searching it did pull up a few posts of people talking about it as well. I will keep searching.

I use premixed colorants with the glycerin from different companies and I know they state to use them within a year. Never had a problem with any molding tho. So obviously I am concerned with using those in recipes now as well. Again thanks for your info!
 
Pink said:
Genny, Thanks again for your replies. :-D And I do want to apologize if my earlier posts sounded like I was trying to debate you or being rude.

I use premixed colorants with the glycerin from different companies and I know they state to use them within a year. Never had a problem with any molding tho. So obviously I am concerned with using those in recipes now as well. Again thanks for your info!
Click to expand...

I didn't think you were being rude.

There are a couple suppliers (I'll see if I can find them) who do add preservatives to their glycerin based colorants.
 
Genny said:
bodhi ~ According to another link on the FDA, a product would require 50% or more glycerin to not need a preservative. So they seem to be contradicting themselves. Although in the link that you posted, I do see that they mention self-pressurized containers, maybe that's the key?
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/02/slides/3840s1_09_slater_Glycerol/sld016.htm
Click to expand...


Thanks for the link Genny, it doesnt want to open for me so ill look at it later. That would make sense too, as glycerites can require up to 70% to preserve water solutions. Those are opened containers though, so it seems it depends on the concentration as well as other ingredients and sometimes packaging. Looks like the salts might be a reliable combo with glycerine.

Sorry for hijacking the thread Pink! Learning in progress :)
 
A product in a sterile one-use container (enema) and a sterile product in controlled access container (nasal spray) cannot be directly compared to personal-use products manufactured in sanitary but non-sterile conditions and packaged in containers that often do not prevent product contamination by the consumer.

Even if a product is microbially safe at the point of sale, there is no way to control contamination from wet fingers, bacteria laden lips, mold from damp showers, etc. Preservatives make sense even if you only view them as insurance against product contamination during normal consumer use.
 
Okay let me reply step by step.

Pink - There is a huge difference between glycerin and glycerite (google the definitions). Glycerin (http://www.paulaschoice.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary/definition/glycerin) is a type of sugar that is extracted from plants and is a humectant which in short attracts water. Whenever water becomes present in a formulation then preservatives become necessary. A Glycerite (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Glycerite) is a product created by extracting properties from plants using glycerine which again is going to attract water into your formulation which is again going to require preservative.

My problem here is that every time someone said you needed a preservative you wanted to discuss their answer to get further proof. You also need to understand that (and this is not your fault) we see sooooo many hobbyists that come in here to try and get us to agree they don't need preservatives because they have already made up their mind. Your posts were indicating the same mindset. Since you are looking for irrefutable proof that preservatives are required then you need to start reading information on some of the formulator sites that are reputable and professional rather than a hobbyist page. HERE is a wonderful resource for some recipes to look at.

Preservatives are not a swear word, they are not evil, they protect you, your family, friends and eventually your customers should you decide to start selling. Glycerin is not a preservative, it does not have the ability to preserve unless you are using huge amounts.

I will add that if you are using airless containers the necessity of a preservative is lowered but remember, a preservative is going to hold the product in the condition that it is in at the time of adding that preservative so if there are already contagions in there it will not destroy them. So if mold is already present it is not going to kill it which is why when we are making lotions and body products we use a heat and hold method in order to give our lotion it's very best chance to remain stable over time.

Bodhi, I am not sure what you are asking me. You want me to find something that says glycerin needs to be preserved? In itself and by itself, no I don't believe it needs to be but you are buying it as a whole product you are not making it yourself. Common sense has got to come into play at some point. Do you really want to risk making a product that is going to draw water to your product which will compromise its stability and not have a preservative in there to protect yourself and your family? Just because you can't see bacteria, or mold spores, or fungus doesn't mean it isn't present. That's why products like this need to be tested whether you are challenge testing or buying a reliable testing kit.

The problem preserving a mostly oil based product is that the most effective preservative in that environment is parabens and we know what the fear mongerers have done to that. So we don't use parabens. We then have to start looking at preservative system that is going to work in an oil environment. They are out there you just have to do the legwork to find them.

Because glycerin is a sweetener/sugar it is going to attract things that grow and again, in pure form I don't believe it requires a preservative however I don't know if there is one already in the product when we receive it. As mentioned to Pink, go to the link on formulations and take a look at what they are doing.

The comment that 50% + glycerin will be a preservative is correct, but are you really going to use that much? HERE is a post on Swift Craft Monkey's blog on that exact question.

****************************
Yes I get cranky when I see people come in wanting to be told they don't need a preservative and Pink I took you as one of these types of people because you weren't accepting the answers given.
​
 
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