Adding FO or EO in oils not at trace?

[andreja]

So, in CP some of you believe that you can't choose an oil to superfat with. That's better to just mix everything in beginning. I also believe this to be true and I read that you could add FO at beginning so one have less problems with seizing or tracing too quickly. Now, I don't remember where I've read this.
I know that lye is still very active at trace. But how much active is it? Is there so much less lye to justify adding EO/FO at trace?

 

[jarvan]

Someone correct me if I am off the mark, but adding fragrance oils or essential oils to the lye solution may incur a change to the scent expected due to various flashpoints of fragrance. I thought the reason to add them at trace is because by that time, you have mixed the oil and lye and the solution should be cooler with less chance for a reaction. I could be full of hogwash. It's just what I heard and read.

 

[Deda]

I put my FO/EO, clay, milk powders, charcoal, oatmeal, crushed herbs - everything - into the bucket, several minutes before I add the lye/water.

I notice no lessening in sticking of the scent. It helps with finicky FO's and lets clays and colors thoroughly disperse in the oil so I don't end up with spots.

 

[Artephius]

The only thing I would worry about is making sure the temperature of your mixture stays below the flashpoint temperature for that particular oil (they all vary). Most of the oils I've used have a flashpoint of over 200*F, but some FOs/EOs burn off at very low temperatures and that is one reason for adding them later on.

That's also one of the reasons some testy FOs get significantly weaker after the soap cures-- if the soap heats inside the mold to a temperature that is hotter than the temperature at which the FO burns off.

I think the key is probably to know the details on the oil you are working with and then you can add it earlier or later.

 

[jarvan]

I put my FO/EO, clay, milk powders, charcoal, oatmeal, crushed herbs - everything - into the bucket, several minutes before I add the lye/water.

I notice no lessening in sticking of the scent. It helps with finicky FO's and lets clays and colors thoroughly disperse in the oil so I don't end up with spots.
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Deda, by "into the bucket", do you mean where your melted oils are?

 

[TessC]

The only time I don't add my FO or EOs to the oils before adding the lye is when I'm using a discoloring fragrance and plan to do a swirl. Otherwise my fragrance, colorant, milk if applicable, honey, etc all go into the oils and get SBd thoroughly before the lye solution is added.

 

[andreja]

Woohoo! Thanks for sharing! I do know about flashpoints and I would make sure to let lye solution cool bellow the flashpoint. I am not sure about flashpoint in some of FO I ordered, so I was thinking of not gelling those, juist in case.

 

[artisan soaps]

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[Gramma Judy]

I found out very quickly about flashpoints of FO on my 2nd batch of soap. I added at trace and immediate ricing. Sb'd the stuff to death which immediate caused acceleration. Overheated in the mold. Now I read every flashpoint and add to oils first. Also mixing at cooler temps. The learning curve for a newbie like me is high. I read for three months before I dove in. So many variables especially when using different oils for each batch. But, I am hooked and you will be too.

 

[jarvan]

Andreja, wherever you bought the fragrance oil from should have the flashpoint by the product description. I guess it depends where you got your FO from.

 

[Deda]

I put my FO/EO, clay, milk powders, charcoal, oatmeal, crushed herbs - everything - into the bucket, several minutes before I add the lye/water.

I notice no lessening in sticking of the scent. It helps with finicky FO's and lets clays and colors thoroughly disperse in the oil so I don't end up with spots.
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Deda, by "into the bucket", do you mean where your melted oils are?

I master batch 50 lbs at a time, melting them together as I mix. After they're thoroughly mixed and cooled I weigh out the oil out into batch size tupperware type containers. When I'm ready to soap I just grab one of the containers, scrape the premeasured oils into my soap bucket and go. No need to melt before each batch.

 

[andreja]

Andreja, wherever you bought the fragrance oil from should have the flashpoint by the product description. I guess it depends where you got your FO from.

I am still waiting for the package to arrive. So I only know flashpoints that are posted on the website. She is still working on putting flashpoints online.
I hope it will be listed on the label, if not I will contact the seller. Thanks for the info!

 

[IanT]

The only thing I would worry about is making sure the temperature of your mixture stays below the flashpoint temperature for that particular oil (they all vary). Most of the oils I've used have a flashpoint of over 200*F, but some FOs/EOs burn off at very low temperatures and that is one reason for adding them later on.

That's also one of the reasons some testy FOs get significantly weaker after the soap cures-- if the soap heats inside the mold to a temperature that is hotter than the temperature at which the FO burns off.

I think the key is probably to know the details on the oil you are working with and then you can add it earlier or later.

ditto and soemtimes even if its a light EO the scent could possibly cook off from the intense temps of the lye solution... I usually add My EO once I blend my oils thoroughly, but def before trace... I like to let trace set in slowly so i ve got time to think, react and play...

 

[carebear]

The flash point may not be what you think it is. It isn't the evaporation point (the temp where things "flash off") but rather the temperature at which something (its fumes, really) will catch fire if exposed to an open flame. Which is not really relevant because the flash point changes entirely when mixed with your oils or base product. (basically when you combine things the flash point is also then averaged - or close enough). so for example, if you use an FO with a flash point of 120 in a soy wax candle with a flash point of 500, the thing doesn't burst into flame when you light the match nearby (I cannot find the flash point calculator, but some supplier has one online - if I come across it, I'll post). Same with adding an FO to your soap batter or your oils.

It is related to the temp at which something evaporates (think about vapor pressure), but it's beyond that. Water "flashes off" at a temp a bit above 212 - but good luck setting those "fumes" on fire LOL.

So you needn't worry about the flash point of your FO, unless you are mixing it with something of a similarly low flash point like... alcohol? the flash point of olive oil is 498 F (http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/sou ... ource.html) and other soaping oils are similar.

 

[Guest]

I tried the adding the FO to the oils tonight , I have not tried it before.I am pretty sure I will not notice any difference. It was nice to have everything in the pot and nothing to possibly forget.( did that on batch # 2).


Kitn
edited for pytos

 

[andreja]

So you needn't worry about the flash point of your FO, unless you are mixing it with something of a similarly low flash point like... alcohol? the flash point of olive oil is 498 F (http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/sou ... ource.html) and other soaping oils are similar.

Thanks for posting that. I did read once about flash point and how this isn't equal to evaporation point. So, now what? How can I know which temperature is too high for my FO?