Shampoo bars (or not to shampoo bar!)

Soapfromthehip said:

Yeah over the last few years my hair haaaaates being washed but looks too dirty to let it slide. I tried all kinds of shampoos and whatnot and the only thing I can think of to do is try to make my own and be in charge of what goes in it. It's terrible in the winter.

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That is a new one, in over 30 years of doing hair I never head a customer complain that their hair hated being washed. If you hair is naturally fuzzy and dry you really need to find a shampoo that works and a conditioner that works. If you hair is dry from damage you will never fix it. Hair is virtually dead but is super resilient but damaged has to be cut. This is why you do not want to use SOAP. There are many many nice shampoos on the market. I will also restate that buying the mild surfactants to make a gentle shampoo is going to cost you more than buying a bottle of shampoo.

reflection said:

so, am i completely offbase in all this or do you think all this is relevant?

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I think this is irrelevant. High PH makes the cuticle lift up, eventually the PH will balance (or you use a acid rinse) and the cuticle will lay flat again. Its this raising and flattening that does the damage. Even low porosity hair will raise up with high PH.

True low porosity hair is very uncommon. Many people think thats what they have due to all those DIY porosity tests on the web but they are inaccurate. They only way to know if you truly are low porosity is to have the hair examined under a high magnification microscope.

I personally have normal porosity, clarified every week and never use protein. My hair broke off not from build up making it brittle but because I essentially had no cuticle left after years of it breaking away from damage.

I used low SF in my shampoo bars. I still got quite a lot of gunky build up, hence the weekly clarifying . You can not get protein build up from SF, its simply not possible.

@Soapfromthehip what exactly does your hair do when you wash it? using the wrong products or treating it wrong according to the texture can make a huge differance in how your hair behaves.

For years I though I had just wavy hair. I didn't use good conditioner and I brushed it, a lot. It was always frizzy and dry, turns out I have curly hair and I was brushing it to death and not giving it enough moisture.
Now I only comb it when wet and use a good conditioner, hair is no longer a frizzy dry nightmare.
I'm in my 40's and just now found shampoo and conditioner that is appropriate for my hair. Spend the last year experimenting with a lot of products to get to this point.

I don't know anything about hair more than any other lay person -- I defer to the beauticians who do have the training and experience to know what they're talking about.

What I can say is is makes no difference to my hair whether there is any coconut oil or not in the soap, whether the superfat is high or low ... what really matters is the use of lye-based soap. Syndet works. Lye soap does not. There are a fair number of people also with the same story as mine -- seems fine at first, but damage in the long term. They have different types of hair and have used many types of lye-based soap recipes for washing their hair. I'm strongly inclined to believe it's the use of any lye-based soap on any hair -- not the specific recipe and not a specific hair type -- that is the culprit.

Hair Therapy

As someone who has long hair....(like to my waist and longer) I find a good quality shampoo...(I like Redkin) used once or twice a week and use of a high quality conditioner "treated" with a monthly heavy treatment is best. I try to monthly use coconut oil as a high level treatment. Coat hair well with coconut oil and wrap head and hair with saran wrap then turban with a towel and let sit for 30 min or so. then rinse with cool water. This is actually what my hairdresser of 25 years told me to do. also...when you shampoo...only shampoo your head...not any length

Obsidian said:

I think this is irrelevant. High PH makes the cuticle lift up, eventually the PH will balance (or you use a acid rinse) and the cuticle will lay flat again. Its this raising and flattening that does the damage. Even low porosity hair will raise up with high PH.

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what about hard water? that has nothing to do with this? i would find it helpful if you can share where you are getting your info and any scientific sources if you have them.

True low porosity hair is very uncommon. Many people think thats what they have due to all those DIY porosity tests on the web but they are inaccurate. They only way to know if you truly are low porosity is to have the hair examined under a high magnification microscope.

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i agree that the diy porosity test sounds rather hokey. my hair does fit the description of low porosity hair to a T though.

I personally have normal porosity, clarified every week and never use protein. My hair broke off not from build up making it brittle but because I essentially had no cuticle left after years of it breaking away from damage.

I used low SF in my shampoo bars. I still got quite a lot of gunky build up, hence the weekly clarifying . You can not get protein build up from SF, its simply not possible.

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i agree that it didn't make sense to say "protein" buildup comes from oils. i do know that silicones, which contain proteins i believe, cause buildup. can oils cause buildup?

it sounds like you weren't using any silicone-containing products? if so, what do you believe was causing all the buildup in your hair?

Hard water will eventually build up on hair regardless of what you use to wash it, it does cause build up faster with lye soap. As far as I know this doesn't damage hair, just makes it feel bad. A good clarifying wash will remove this build up. I haven't read any proof about about hard water and if its damaging, this is just my personal observation with my own hair and reading others experiences on a hair forum I go to. Lots of info if you really want to get into hair chemistry http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/forum.php
Here is a bit of info on high PH and what it does to hair http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4158629/

Protein doesn't come from silicone. Silicone is a synthetic substance that coats the hair and makes it slick. It can build up badly for some people, they have to clarify more often to remove the build up. I use heavy silicones and have to clarify every 1-2 weeks to keep my fine hair clean. Some people can get by with only clarifying a couple times a year.

I did not use silicones when using the shampoo bars, most of my build up was soap scum from hardish water. A good washing with shampoo removed it no problem.
Anything you use in your hair can cause build up, oils, conditioners, leave ins, gels, it all leaves a bit of stuff behind.

This site is great for in depth info http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/

Obsidian said:

Hard water will eventually build up on hair regardless of what you use to wash it, it does cause build up faster with lye soap. As far as I know this doesn't damage hair, just makes it feel bad. A good clarifying wash will remove this build up. I haven't read any proof about about hard water and if its damaging, this is just my personal observation with my own hair and reading others experiences on a hair forum I go to.

Protein doesn't come from silicone. Silicone is a synthetic substance that coats the hair and makes it slick. It can build up badly for some people, they have to clarify more often to remove the build up. I use heavy silicones and have to clarify every 1-2 weeks to keep my fine hair clean. Some people can get by with only clarifying a couple times a year.

I did not use silicones when using the shampoo bars, most of my build up was soap scum from hardish water. A good washing with shampoo removed it no problem.
Anything you use in your hair can cause build up, oils, conditioners, leave ins, gels, it all leaves a bit of stuff behind.

This site is great for in depth info http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/

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thanks for the links. i'll take a look at them when i get a chance.

i had bookmarked this article and the author, a cosmetic chemist, says that hard water can make hair prone to breakage and a host of other problems leading up to that. she talks about both soap scum and the mineral deposits, etc.. i have very hard water and the ACV rinse i recently started using is working wonders. clarifying shampoos are good to.

another thing that can cause hair breakage is brushing curly hair. i don't own a brush because it just doesn't work on my curly hair. here are some other causes of hair breakage. i have to color my roots way too often to cover the gray and i have no doubt that is what has caused breakage for me. (i've never used a poo bar.) i recently switched back to an ammonia-free color and it is much, much gentler and still does the job.

one thing i noticed when reading the long hair forum previously is that i saw people mention only using the shampoo bars on their scalp and not directly on their hair. i thought that was interesting but where's the fun in that?

i thought maybe silicones had protein in them because the hydrolyzed wheat protein somethingorother that is in my styling gel is considered a water-soluble silicone. it looks like it is the other way around and that some protein treatments contain silicones.

if the article i linked to in my earlier post is correct about the part about buildup causing dryness and eventually causing breakage, and you are saying many things can cause buildup, then that is one more thing to consider. here's more info on breakage. another one on buildup, dryness & breakage. all this to say that there are a lot of factors that can cause hair breakage.

Here's my two cents. Unless your hair is extremely oily or dirty, I feel it's not necessary to pour shampoo into your hands and rub it on your hair and scalp. I think that even "moisturizing" shampoo is just too efficient at removing oil. As I've gotten older, and my once oily hair has become dry, I find that mixing a dab of shampoo about the size of a nickle, into about a quart of warm water, and pouring that through my wet hair, is all I need, and it cleanses just enough, without stripping the hair. I like to rub some avocado oil on the ends of my hair the night before I wash it, too. After I rinse out the "shampoo water" with an ACV rinse, then I condition and air dry. The less I do to my hair, the better it seems to like it.

navigator9 said:

Here's my two cents. Unless your hair is extremely oily or dirty, I feel it's not necessary to pour shampoo into your hands and rub it on your hair and scalp. I think that even "moisturizing" shampoo is just too efficient at removing oil. As I've gotten older, and my once oily hair has become dry, I find that mixing a dab of shampoo about the size of a nickle, into about a quart of warm water, and pouring that through my wet hair, is all I need, and it cleanses just enough, without stripping the hair. I like to rub some avocado oil on the ends of my hair the night before I wash it, too. After I rinse out the "shampoo water" with an ACV rinse, then I condition and air dry. The less I do to my hair, the better it seems to like it.

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Hair gets extremely dirty even if you do not realize it, and it is best to wash all your hair not just the scalp. I am not saying daily, but hair likes to be clean. ACV rinse will remove any residue left from the shampoo. Follow with a conditioner or cream rinse if preferred. A leave on conditioner can also be used for hair that is long and tangles. I have old very grey hair that is in beautiful condition using shampoo 4 times per week on the average. Daily shampooing is what can be hard on hair so it will usually require a conditioner. Doing a hot oil treatment the night before is great for hair.

soapfromthehip,

here is probably the best info i've found on shampoo bars and potential damage: all about shampoo bars. it is by the same cosmetic chemist i mentioned earlier. on p. 2 of the article she discusses both hard water & pH being the culprits so i don't personally believe it is only about pH.

you can look up on these hard water maps to get a general idea of how hard or soft your water is. here is another map and they seem to agree generally but not completely. your state looks like one of the better ones for using shampoo bars. if you do decide to go ahead and use the shampoo bars here are some good tips i've come across:

• definitely use the ACV rinse as it removes both buildup from oils, etc & mineral deposits from hard water & lowers the pH of your hair. i don't think this is optional at all from all my online reading
• use a showerhead filter or bottled water if you have hard water issues (ACV may well not be enough for some & personally i'd definitely do this if in a hard water area)
• consider the level of hard water in your area & the dryness or oiliness of your hair when determining what SF you use
• use a clarifying shampoo periodically if needed
• consider the porosity of your hair, if it is high porosity you may well have more problems because the cuticle is already more raised up
• lather the bar in your hands rather than directly on your hair to avoid breakage. i've read you need to lather really well & rinse really well too
• use a good conditioner after the ACV rinse if your hair needs it
• make sure any products you still use don't have silcones in them so you don't get silicone buildup which poo bars will have a harder time removing
• it may not be a good idea to use coconut oil as it's so cleansing, & possibly drying, but if you do keep it to a rather low %
• consider using citric acid in your poo bar (interesting discussion about 3/4s of the way down in the comments about whether or not it can really lower the pH. soap queen says yes they got their bars, testing with pH meters, down to a pH of 7 after a year of experimenting on how to add the citric acid & still get a hard bar). this might well be another one of those things that really helps but i honestly don't know.
• consider your soap ingredients well for what is best for your hair & using poo bars & water type
• pay careful attention to the condition of your hair if you do use them. if noticing damage then stop using them or adjust your methods

so, shampoo bars are rather high maintenance and may not be the best way to clean hair, but maybe with a lot of tweaking they can work. some people do seem to have good results. i fully admit i am biased because i'd still like to try them so feel free to take everything i say with a big grain of salt. best.

So, as a novice to the world of hair care and soap making, I'm getting incredibly confused. There seems to be no general consensus on hair at all, haha. In soap, the danger comes from the high ph correct? And so in order to get hair friendly safe soap, you can.... Add in agents to lower the ph? Would that then nullify the risk from soap? I've heard something about salt helping to lower the ph and soften water. So would it be good/safe to wash my hair in a bowl of say, Epsom salt? Or with only water that has acv added? I also have some demand from friends and family to create a shampoo, and found a book with shampoo recipes, but after all this talk I'm concerned. Is potassium hydroxide soap as bad for hair as sodium hydroxide? Sorry if these questions have been answered. Does anyone have links to more info about hair and hair care that cites studies?

Edit: finished reading the comments, it seems like I must give up hope! The best hair option is syndets? I do not want to accept that!
What about small amounts of coconut oil on it's own? It has a cleaning/dying effect while also being a moisturizer, so would it work on hair if applied minimally under hot water? What about borax to lower ph? I know there is some controversy as to whether it is safe or not, but from some of my reading it is only dangerous if digested in high quantities or if it gets in your eyes... Like many other things...

Any high PH soap will eventually cause damage to hair. Many of us here have tried and paid for it. I have customers ask all the time and. I explain why I won't / don't make them. You can't drop the ph of solid or liquor soap enough. Then it will no longer be soap and will separate. Check out swiftcraftymonkey site and she has a lot of information on synthetic shampoo. Hi and welcome!!

The simple answer is that if you want to make something that is guaranteed safe for the hair of all of your family and friends, you need to use the same stuff they can buy in the store...and pay about five times the price they pay for it.

faerytech said:

Edit: finished reading the comments, it seems like I must give up hope! The best hair option is syndets? I do not want to accept that!
What about small amounts of coconut oil on it's own? It has a cleaning/dying effect while also being a moisturizer, so would it work on hair if applied minimally under hot water? What about borax to lower ph? I know there is some controversy as to whether it is safe or not, but from some of my reading it is only dangerous if digested in high quantities or if it gets in your eyes... Like many other things...

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faery, i'm right there with you. here is one thing i found although it's not the most convenient. coconut milk & aloe freezer cubes i haven't tried it yet but am planning to.

Whether you want to accept it or not - so far there is no better option for the majority of people over the long term than syndet shampoos. There will be some exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions.