Softness and stickiness questions (recipes used included)

[chibilightangel]

I have a few questions related to the softness of soap and stickiness of soap based on my third and fourth batches.

My third batch was formulated as follows for a total of 20 oz:
10% coconut
25% lard
50% olive il
5% grapeseed oil
10% cocoa butter
8% superfat with a 5% water discount
0.8ppo FO (ginger papaya from new directions aromatics)

I tried my new labcolor (peach) with an attempt at a first swirl. Learned that taking out unscented soap to color and then once mixed adding fragrance to the other part of the batch makes for different consistencies at pour... would be great for a plain layered look though. Once cut, turned out as follows, though the flash messed up the color. The color definition is a lot less than shown, it's really a peach color against a beige type background.

Notice the bottom of the cut pieces are all kinds torn. I CPOP'd the batch with plastic wrap on top and cut a bit over the 24h mark. It was fairly soft, though I wouldn't say any more so than my first 2 batches that cut without a problem. Any ideas what might cause the stickiness just in the bottom of the bars?

Fourth batch is as follows with a total of 20 oz:
5% cocoa butter
15% coconut oil
5% grapeseed oil
25% lard
40% olive oil
10% shea butter
7% superfat with 5% water discount
.5oz ppo FO (ruby grapefruit from NDA, totally in love with the cool citrus scent it leaves)

Once again tried some swirl action with the peach labcolor... I will apparently need to practice this some more. Again CPOP'd but this time I decided to skip the plastic top. When I took it out of the oven the next day, I had ash on top which was sticky to the touch. When pulling slightly on the freezer paper, it didn't want to release cleanly, and the newly exposed edge was somewhat sticky for about 5 minutes before drying out. So I soaped Monday evening and ended up cutting only thursday evening in the hopes that it would stop being sticky (in the fridge all day thursday too). I never did get the sides to release cleanly from the freezer paper which was a new one for me as my 3 other batches came out clean). It cut without any sticking like the third batch, so lovely cut faces. Sorry no pics at the moment as it looks very similar to the third batch in terms of coloring.

So the question is, based on my recipes, what could have caused these two softness and stickiness issues? I'm undecided if it's the grapeseed oil, the use of fragrance oil (but then you'd think everyone would complain about that), the butters or something else altogether.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm going to be putting together another recipe to try this weekend in which I want to try adding some sugar to extra bubbly. I'm really loving the ability to play with oils to change the soap properties and then getting to see the finished result and test it out.

 

[chibilightangel]

Anyone have any idea? I'd really love to make another batch tomorrow but would like to avoid the stickyness and excessive softness.

I think that for the moment, I'll skip the grapeseed oil and play with other numbers instead. I did get some castor oil with my order this week so might want to add some, but I've already heard that it can lead to sticky soap (I'd use it at about 5%, 10 max and from what others have said it's when it's over 15% that it gets sticky)

 

[soapbuddy]

Is it possible that your olive oil is adultarated?

 

[IrishLass]

I can't say for sure what caused the problem exactly, but my soaping instinct tells me that it sounds like your soap may not have gelled as thoroughly on the bottom. Whenever I've had the rare batch of ungelled or partially gelled soap it was always soft and sticky after unmolding- almost like cream cheese in consistancy- and it was very tricky to cut cleanly. Nothing that a good cure can't cure, though. :wink:

How is your soap today? It should be less soft and less sticky.

Also- I've found that lard soaps and olive oil soaps tend to be on the softer side of things at first right out of the mold, but they harden up quite nicely with cure.

So, my guess would be a possible partial or no gel combined with the fact that it was a lard/olive oil based soap, plus it was less than 5 on the super-fat scale, meaning a higher % of unreacted oils. By the way- none of these things are bad. It only means that things will be softer and/or sticky at first when you go to unmold, but that's it. Based on my own experiences, I am 100% positive that you will have an awesome soap in 4 weeks cure time.

IrishLass


ETA: Just saw Soapbuddy's post. She brings up a good point. Some stores sell adulterated olive oil (i.e. olive oil cut sneakily with canola or some other oil but without mentioning it on the label). What brand did you use?

 

[newbie]

Hard to say. Per Soapcalc, the finished soap would be a little on the softer side but not terribly so. A 34 on the hardness scale should be okay. WHat kind of mold do you use? Are you certain it fully gelled? As it is a slightly soft soap, you may have to let in sit for longer than 24 hours so it has more of a chance to firm up. THe difference in your batches could be a difference in gelling as some FOs will heat up soap more than others or you soaped cooler for the sticky batch, perhaps? SOmetimes things are a mystery.

It seems like most people keep Castor oil at or below 10% but in this world anything goes and people experiment like crazy. Grapeseed oil has a shorter shelf life and is more likely to cause DOS than some of your other oils, but again, experimenting is key! Have fun! And your peachy color looks wonderful!

 

[newbie]

Oops! I see three of us answered at the same time. SOrry for the repetition!

 

[chibilightangel]

thanks for the replies.

I'm not worried about the olive oil as it's the Costco olive oil that a bunch of other soapers seem to use. I guess it could be a weird partial gel even though it was oven processed for about 90 minutes at 180... I didn't actually watch it go in the oven and just turned it off after about 90 minutes. I used a home-made wooden log mold (this one being about 2.5x3x9.5) that I line with freezer paper.

I'm still trying to figure out how people are getting bars over the 40 mark as so far the closest I've managed is 38.. I guess I'll just have to keep playing with percentages.

 

[IrishLass]

thanks for the replies.

I'm not worried about the olive oil as it's the Costco olive oil that a bunch of other soapers seem to use. I guess it could be a weird partial gel even though it was oven processed for about 90 minutes at 180... I didn't actually watch it go in the oven and just turned it off after about 90 minutes. I used a home-made wooden log mold (this one being about 2.5x3x9.5) that I line with freezer paper.

I use the Costco olive oil, too, so it looks like no worries there.

Sometimes, depending on one's formula and/or FO used, it's actually possible to get a partial gel even if you CPOPed it. I've had that happen to me when CPOPing with certain FOs. My solution was better insulation via using my mold's custom made wooden cover and wrapping a few towels around the mold before sticking it in the oven. That helped to trap in the heat better and insure full gel.

I'm still trying to figure out how people are getting bars over the 40 mark as so far the closest I've managed is 38.. I guess I'll just have to keep playing with percentages.

I assume you are talking in terms of hardness, right? If so, my 'normal' soap formulas fall into the range of 34 at the lowest and 40 at the highest (the 'un-normal' exception being my 100% coconut oil formula with a 20% SF which is much higher, like in the 60's or something), but they are all plenty hard once cured. Don't get too hung up on the numbers. They are just general guidelines at best. The longer you soap, the more you will find that the numbers on paper do not often reflect actual reality.

IrishLass