Sodium Citrate

[LunaLe]

Could somebody give me some advice? I read an article that talked about sodium citrate in soap. So I bought some to start putting in my soap and I I tried using it the other night. It was a disaster. I ended up throwing my soap in the trash. I added it to my lye water, and it would not dissolve. I stirred, I blended. I waited a really long time, but it wouldn't dissolve. I got annoyed and impatient and added it to my oils anyways. I assumed it would dissolve after stick blending, but no. It took forever for the soap to set. I unmolded 2 days later and it was soft, and I don't know, rubbery? Like jello, but harder. I don't even know how to describe it. It had oil or the fragrance oil seeping out. I tried bending a piece to break in half because it was so weird and the layers split apart and it wouldn't even break, it just bent. It was horrible.

How do you get this stuff to dissolve? Is it because I put it in the lye water?

 

[DeeAnna]

You need to tell us how much you used and what your recipe was. Otherwise there's no way to know what might have happened.

 

[AliOop]

From what I've read in other posts here, and also on DeeAnna's blog, you need to dissolve it in a separate bit of water before adding it to your lye water.

 

[LunaLe]

You need to tell us how much you used and what your recipe was. Otherwise there's no way to know what might have happened.

Recipe: Olive oil 39%, Coconut oil 19%, Palm oil 16%, Castor oil 16%, Shea butter 6%, I know the percentages are a bit off, but I didn't add the decimals. I added .7 oz of sodium citrate.

From what I've read in other posts here, and also on DeeAnna's blog, you need to dissolve it in a separate bit of water before adding it to your lye water.

I will definitely try that next time. At least if it won't dissolve I won't waste my lye and stuff.

 

[dibbles]

Read @DeeAnna's article about sodium citrate use here Soapy Stuff: Citrate I use it just as described. The amount used is based on your oil weight. I reserve some of my water (I use a bit more than twice the weight of the SC). I warm the water in a small bowl or cup in the microwave which seems to help it dissolve better. And I add it to my oils, not my lye solution. I also stick blend it to incorporate it into the oils before adding the lye solution.

 

[LunaLe]

Read @DeeAnna's article about sodium citrate use here Soapy Stuff: Citrate I use it just as described. The amount used is based on your oil weight. I reserve some of my water (I use a bit more than equal weight of the SC). I warm the water in a small bowl or cup in the microwave which seems to help it dissolve better. And I add it to my oils, not my lye solution. I also stick blend it to incorporate it into the oils before adding the lye solution.

Thank you so much! I will definitely be doing this next time.

 

[dibbles]

Thank you so much! I will definitely be doing this next time.

I should have said I dissolve the SC in batch water that is a little more than twice the weight of the sodium citrate. I have edited my post to correct.

 

[shunt2011]

With 16% Castor Oil it's going to be sticky and may be softer longer as well. That's too much Castor.

 

[Megan]

You can also dissolve it in your water before adding your lye....at least with citric acid you can, so I hope this is true for the sodium salt. I just make sure the solution is clear before adding any new ingredients.

 

[DeeAnna]

Recipe: Olive oil 39%, Coconut oil 19%, Palm oil 16%, Castor oil 16%, Shea butter 6%, I know the percentages are a bit off, but I didn't add the decimals. I added .7 oz of sodium citrate.

Okay 0.7 ounce citrate ... that's a start ... but in how much fat? You gave percentages for everything except the citrate, and there's no way to figure out the dosage with this info.

What was your recipe ALL ingredients ALL in weights, please?

 

[LunaLe]

With 16% Castor Oil it's going to be sticky and may be softer longer as well. That's too much Castor.

I've made this recipe before and it wasn't soft or sticky. How much castor are you supposed to use?

Okay 0.7 ounce citrate ... that's a start ... but in how much fat? You gave percentages for everything except the citrate, and there's no way to figure out the dosage with this info.

What was your recipe ALL ingredients ALL in weights, please?

Sorry about that! Here's a pic of the recipe. I think I did 2% for the citrate.

 

[shunt2011]

I've made this recipe before and it wasn't soft or sticky. How much castor are you supposed to use?

5-10 percent is more than adequate. Castor stabilizes lather doesn’t creat it. I generally do 5-7%. I have one recipe that’s 10%.

 

[LunaLe]

5-10 percent is more than adequate. Castor stabilizes lather doesn’t creat it. I generally do 5-7%. I have one recipe that’s 10%.

I'll have to try lowering it and adding something else. I thought it made more bubbles. I've been trying to make a more bubbly lather for my husband.

 

[DeeAnna]

2% citrate is within the realm of reason, and the rest of your recipe seems okay. Maybe it's a combination of things.

Some of this is subjective -- things that bothers me might not bother another soaper -- so take my comments with a grain of salt.

The superfat is higher than I'd use. I'd suggest more like 2-5%.

The castor is higher than typical, especially for a high oleic soap like this.

The amount of sodium lactate is cut off, but I'm assuming you used 2 tsp of a 60% sodium lactate solution? Or did you use 2 tsp of SL powder? Too much sodium lactate can make the soap rubbery.

Another thing I'm seeing occasionally is people are running into weird problems when they use normal doses of two or more salts in the recipe -- sodium citrate, sodium lactate, sodium acetate from vinegar, table salt (sodium chloride), etc. These sodium (or sometimes potassium) salts aren't just separate ingredients that don't "talk" to each other; they add up and can interact. This interaction can cause unexpected problems.

I can't say this is the problem with your soap, but it's certainly something to consider. If you made this recipe with only sodium citrate, and then made it with sodium lactate, and finally made the recipe with both salts, the outcome of these three batches would tell you if the salts are interacting or not. If you feel you need both salts in this recipe, but they seem to be interacting, you may have to lower the dosage of one or both salts.

 

[LunaLe]

2% citrate is within the realm of reason, and the rest of your recipe seems okay. Maybe it's a combination of things.

Some of this is subjective -- things that bothers me might not bother another soaper -- so take my comments with a grain of salt.

The superfat is higher than I'd use. I'd suggest more like 2-5%.

The castor is higher than typical, especially for a high oleic soap like this.

The amount of sodium lactate is cut off, but I'm assuming you used 2 tsp of a 60% sodium lactate solution? Or did you use 2 tsp of SL powder? Too much sodium lactate can make the soap rubbery.

Another thing I'm seeing occasionally is people are running into weird problems when they use normal doses of two or more salts in the recipe -- sodium citrate, sodium lactate, sodium acetate from vinegar, table salt (sodium chloride), etc. These sodium (or sometimes potassium) salts aren't just separate ingredients that don't "talk" to each other; they add up and can interact. This interaction can cause unexpected problems.

I can't say this is the problem with your soap, but it's certainly something to consider. If you made this recipe with only sodium citrate, and then made it with sodium lactate, and finally made the recipe with both salts, the outcome of these three batches would tell you if the salts are interacting or not. If you feel you need both salts in this recipe, but they seem to be interacting, you may have to lower the dosage of one or both salts.

Thank you for all of the advice! Yes, it was 2 tsp for the sodium lactate. I've made this recipe before without the sodium citrate and sodium lactate in it, but I haven't done just one of them. Guess I'll need to play around and experiment.

 

[Jillyb]

Read @DeeAnna's article about sodium citrate use here Soapy Stuff: Citrate I use it just as described. The amount used is based on your oil weight. I reserve some of my water (I use a bit more than twice the weight of the SC). I warm the water in a small bowl or cup in the microwave which seems to help it dissolve better. And I add it to my oils, not my lye solution. I also stick blend it to incorporate it into the oils before adding the lye solution.

Yes thats what I do to.. works well