SoapQueen's Invigorating Shampoo bar recipe

[ocean_soul]

I'm wondering if anyone here has any feedback regarding this recipe? Specifically, has anyone noticed this soap to be prone to DOS? I'm at my wits end with this recipe! I've made it many times, at first I had no problems but recent batches have been developing DOS. The first time it happened I figured it was because I left the bars to cure just bellow a window sill (a batch of bath bombs left in the same location fizzed out, so moisture was an issue), then I figured the tea tree essential oil was too old so I made sure to only use fresh tea tree oil....nope, still getting DOS! It's making me grrr! :evil:

I did switch to a new olive oil, not sure if it was before or after I started noticing problems. Could this be the culprit? Pretty crazy because before hand I was using grocery store olive oil now I use soapmaking pure olive oil.


Here is the recipe:

10 oz Coconut Oil
10 oz Palm Oil
8 oz Castor Oil
8 oz Olive Oil
12 oz Distilled Water
5 oz Sodium hydroxide
1.5 oz tea tree essential oil (I only use 1 oz)

Oh, I should add, I've also had problems with slight variations of this recipe! A few times I added a couple of ounces of shea butter into the recipe (and adjusted the amount of lye I needed, of course) and I used lavender essential oil to scent it. DOS like crazy! >_<
​

 

[DeeAnna]

You say it's DOS, but there is DOS ... and there is DOS. It's not always about the ingredients; sometimes it is contamination from how the soap is handled or cured or the environmental conditions during cure. More specific info would be good, so .... Is it overall discoloration? If overall, does the soap have a rancid oil smell? Is the soap unusually soft or gooey in the discolored areas? Is it just small spots of discoloration? If spots, where are the spots located? You say you cure soap under a window ... so is the window open a lot for dust to land on the soaps? Does a lot of light come in the window? Do people handle the soap often with hands that are not freshly washed? Are you using different tools or containers to make the soap? Metallic contamination, especially calcium and copper, can trigger DOS. Pictures?

***

Here's something I wrote awhile back that may be helpful:

I don't pretend to have the answers to DOS, but here are some trends I am seeing. First off, there is overall DOS and there are isolated spots of DOS. I think you have to look at these as somewhat separate issues.

*

Overall DOS -- Yellow/orange discoloration over most of the bar, sometimes many measles-like spots and sometimes an overall color change. Sometimes the soap becomes soft, warped, and smelly and can weep liquid from the darkest areas. Often affects most or all of an entire soap batch.

The main issues IMO are the ingredients, the recipe, and the method of storage.

Possible causes -- Old, oxidized oils; oils with a short shelf life (corn, hemp, etc.); overly high superfat (yes, I do know about Kevin Dunn's experiments and the conclusions people are drawing from his study); exposure to excessive light and/or humidity in storage; oxidized or old FO or EO (oxidized lavender EO seems to be a particular culprit); and metal contamination in the air, storage container, water, lye, or other recipe additives (chlorophyll, for example).

Solutions might include using fresh oils from a reliable supplier; storing oils in a cool, dark place; careful selection of other recipe ingredients; moderate superfat; storing soap in low light and low humidity conditions; and storing soap in a container or on shelving that is clean and chemically inert.

*

Isolated spots of DOS -- One or a few yellow/orange dots on a bar. Typically does not affect an entire soap batch.

This appears to be caused by a localized problem, such as a bit of contamination from one's hands or from dust in the air or from excessive exposure to light.

Solutions might include the use of packaging that prevents customers from directly handling the soap, handling soap with clean hands, keeping soap dust free, storing soap on non-metal surfaces, and rotating soap in a store display to keep it as fresh as possible.

 

[ocean_soul]

DeeAnna, thanks for your thorough response! Here are your answers.

Is it overall discoloration?

No

Is the soap unusually soft or gooey in the discolored areas?

Not yet.

Is it just small spots of discoloration? If spots, where are the spots located?

They are relatively small, located in various spots on the bars. Some are on the edges, others in the middle of the wide face of the bar.

You say you cure soap under a window ... so is the window open a lot for dust to land on the soaps?

I only cured a batch of soap next to the window once, after I started to get orange spots I vowed to never cure soap by the window again. But no, the window is never open.

Does a lot of light come in the window?

Some diffused light comes through the blinds, which are always drawn.

Do people handle the soap often with hands that are not freshly washed?

Nope, only I handle the soap before they get wrapped. Most of the time I use my bare hands but I think I'll try to always use gloves from now on.

Are you using different tools or containers to make the soap?

Yes!

Metallic contamination, especially calcium and copper, can trigger DOS. Pictures?

I will do my best to provide you with pictures shortly! Right now it is dark so I'll wait around for some sunlight.

***

Here's something I wrote awhile back that may be helpful:

I don't pretend to have the answers to DOS, but here are some trends I am seeing. First off, there is overall DOS and there are isolated spots of DOS. I think you have to look at these as somewhat separate issues.

This appears to be caused by a localized problem, such as a bit of contamination from one's hands or from dust in the air or from excessive exposure to light.

That was very helpful. Interesting...I did have troubles unmolding this batch and unfortunately once I did get it out I plopped my fresh loaf into my soap cutter, not realizing it had accumulated quite a bit of cat fur. Furry soap, ugh! D: I did my best to clean off all the fur, but perhaps this early mishap contributed to some of the DOS on the outer edges of my soap.

Something that supports the idea of small bits of contamination being the culprit is that when the soaps were a month old I discovered the first DOS spot. It turns out I missed cleaning a spot on my soap curing shelves and I had placed a bar on a small speck of old soap, as a result a DOS spot was forming around that speck. One of my soaps made another soap go bad! Aaah! It was funny, in a terrible sort of way.

Also! I'm planning on doing an experiment, making a pound of this soap without any essential oil and monitoring it to see how it cures.

 

[ocean_soul]

The plot thickens...

....okay, so what I just said is still valid but I think there's more to my problem than just contamination. I say this because I just went to my soap room and checked up an an old test batch I made using this recipe, only I swapped the Tea tree oil out for 10x Orange and Spearmint essential oils. These suckers are over a year old, have been stored, unwrapped, in a cardboard box. And yet no DOS! They were hot processed, though, so maybe that made a difference? :eh:

Yet another factor to experiment with!

 

[DeeAnna]

One line of thinking is that gelled soaps may not go rancid as quickly as non-gelled soaps. I wouldn't say this is a hard-and-fast thing because so many other things can trigger DOS as well. It's an annoying issue. :cry:

 

[Obsidian]

I can't really help with the DOS problem as I've only had it once on my soap (100% OO after just one month) but I was wondering how you like this recipe beside the DOS problem? I ran it through soapcal and it come up with a very high cleansing number, thats opposite of what I've learned is good in a shampoo bar.

 

[ocean_soul]

As promised, here are some pics of the funky bars. More comments to follow as I take breaks from cooking.

 

[navigator9]

Yep, that sure looks like DOS to me. Have you ever tried adding ROE to the recipe?

 

[ocean_soul]

I can't really help with the DOS problem as I've only had it once on my soap (100% OO after just one month) but I was wondering how you like this recipe beside the DOS problem? I ran it through soapcal and it come up with a very high cleansing number, thats opposite of what I've learned is good in a shampoo bar.

Lucky you! I had some hiccups here and there, most of which I've been able to trace down to a root cause but not this time.

These shampoo bars are VERY cleansing. When I first started using shampoo bars my hair loved this recipe...but after awhile I could tell this recipe was too cleansing for my fine hair. I've tried Genny's shampoo bar too and while my hair liked at first, now, not so much. I guess I need something in between the two.

I do *love* how Soap Queen's bar lathers up, but I'm convinced the palm oil in the recipe contributed to the sticky feeling on my hair. Never had that issue with Genny's recipe.

 

[ocean_soul]

Yep, that sure looks like DOS to me. Have you ever tried adding ROE to the recipe?

I actually use ROE in my Lavender/Spearmint variation on this recipe, I still get DOS, though. :\

 

[DeeAnna]

Your spots do look like DOS from scattered bits of contamination. I'd love to say I have a definite solution for you, but there are just too many possibilities to nail just one (or a few) down as the culprit. You're doing everything as carefully as you can and you are being thoughtful about your work. Kudos to you!

Kevin Dunn suggested using 1-2 parts ROE per thousand parts of oil (ppt) in a soap recipe. This was based on LotionCrafter's ROE that has 7% carnosic acid. If one would use a ROE product in a lower strength -- I've seen 2% and 5%, for example -- the dose would need to be increased accordingly.

He also suggested other treatments -- BHT at 1 ppt or EDTA at 0.5 ppt or a combination of 1 ppt BHT + 1 ppt sodium citrate.

I can't personally speak about whether his suggestions work, but they're certainly something to consider.

 

[Belinda02]

Could your home be humid?

 

[Obsidian]

These shampoo bars are VERY cleansing. When I first started using shampoo bars my hair loved this recipe...but after awhile I could tell this recipe was too cleansing for my fine hair. I've tried Genny's shampoo bar too and while my hair liked at first, now, not so much. I guess I need something in between the two.

I do *love* how Soap Queen's bar lathers up, but I'm convinced the palm oil in the recipe contributed to the sticky feeling on my hair. Never had that issue with Genny's recipe.

Maybe try genny's recipe but replace the 10% soy with coconut. That will raise the cleansing some but no too much. I also lower the SF to around 4 or so, otherwise my fine hair gets gunky feeling.

 

[ocean_soul]

Could your home be humid?

I have wondered this myself. It doesn't feel humid and the room I store the soaps is the coolest room in the apartment, doesn't get more than low 70's in there. Many other soaps are stored there using a variety of different recipes, DOS is not rampant among those soaps, just this particular recipe always has problems.

 

[ocean_soul]

Your spots do look like DOS from scattered bits of contamination. I'd love to say I have a definite solution for you, but there are just too many possibilities to nail just one (or a few) down as the culprit.

Hahaha, there do seem to be so many variables at work here. I've even joked with my husband that if I look at this soap the wrong way it'll go funny! It certainly seems that way, sometimes. XD Ah well, as soon as I get some new lye I'll start experimenting. If my results are inconclusive then I guess I'll just have to stop using this particular recipe. :\

Also, thanks for all your feedback, everyone! I appreciate it.

 

[ocean_soul]

Maybe try genny's recipe but replace the 10% soy with coconut. That will raise the cleansing some but no too much. I also lower the SF to around 4 or so, otherwise my fine hair gets gunky feeling.

Actually, the first time I used Genny's recipe I made that swap. Obviously more experimentation is needed. To the soap lab, away!

 

[Obsidian]

Last time I made Genny's recipe, I replaced the soy with 5% CO and 5% neem, its the best shampoo bar I've made yet. Sometimes my hair acts up and starts to get gunky and I use shampoo for two washings with no conditioner. Thats enough to degunk so the shampoo bars work again.

 

[sweethavenarts]

I've gotta say that I LOVE the soap queen's recipe. The the recipe on the forum here does nothing for me. But I also have GREASY GREASY hair. Like wash everyday or die. Bums me out, I've got like 7 bars of the forum shampoo bar that don't do me any good. I just stumbled across the last two bars of my soap queen recipe so I'd better make more. Also mine have had NO DOS and I did HP it.

 

[judymoody]

The recipe you provided should be pretty stable. Is it possible that your olive oil is adulterated? Many brands are. Also, as you seem to be aware, a number of soapers have reported an association between lavender EO and DOS.

 

[Seawolfe]

I've heard of people adding ROE immediately to their oils as they receive them. Would that help in any way in this case?