Oil seeping from my liquid soap paste... help!!!

[Steph0104]

Hi all, my recipe is as follow:
20% olive oil
20% rice bran oil
60% coconut oil
0% super fat
KOH : water is 1:1 (81.64 gram each), incorporate when oil is 69C and lye is 70C (sorry we use metric in Australia)
I use soapcalc to generate the recipe.

Last time I made liquid soap with more than 20C temperature difference between lye and oil, so it riced up immediately and fail, the end product is separated in two layers.

This time I measure everything carefully and make sure there's no temperature shock between lye and oil, stick blended until the mashed potato stage then cooked the paste at high heat in crockpot for 1.5 hrs then turn to low for 2 more hours. But I soon realize oil was seeping from my LS paste. Finally, the translucent gel sit on a layer of oil and the paste never pass the clarity test.
Then I cooled the paste, drained away the oil and rinse the hardened paste before diluting. But it didn't help. When I pour in hot water for dilution it turned to milky, which is a telltale sign of separated layered end product from my experience.

Can someone please tell me what's wrong with it? I am so frustrated as I used to make perfect liquid body wash with the above oils (different ratio of oil ofcoz) I really don't know what went wrong.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm not quite sure why you're thinking that separation is a sign of failure. To be honest, ricing and separation are pretty normal for liquid soap making. Just mix the liquid back into the rest of the soap and keep going.

The temperature difference between the lye solution and the fat makes no difference. Once the ingredients are mixed together, that temp difference disappears. Ricing (applesauce texture) in liquid soap is pretty common. Just mix the ricing back together and keep going.

How do you know the liquid is oil? Just guessing? If so, please be aware the liquid is just as likely to be soap as fat. Just mix the liquid back into the rest of the soap and keep going.

Even after the paste is fully saponified, it can sometimes separate a bit. Again, the answer is just to mix the liquid back into the rest of the paste. It will be fine.

Honestly, everything you're describing is pretty typical for liquid soap making. You're getting frustrated over normal stuff and giving up too quickly.

Diluted soap can be milky for many reasons, not just that the soap is not fully saponified. The zap test is the better way to learn if there is still unreacted alkali. If the soap zaps, then it needs to saponify longer, although I highly doubt after 3.5 hours of cooking, however, that the soap is not fully saponified.

If the soap does not zap and is milky, then the soap is fully saponified and there's something else going on. Did you make the soap or dilute the soap with distilled or deionized water or tap/drinking water? I see you used 0% superfat for the recipe, but did you also account for the purity of the actual KOH you're using?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

KOH : water is 1:1

That's the problem... not enough water to last through the cook. Generally, use 3:1 water:lye. Sometimes 2:1 but keep an eye on it. If it starts to bloat up, stir it down and quickly move it to the sink OR have cold water at the ready equal to the difference between 3:1 and 2:1

ETA: I bring my paste to trace and stop there. Combine when oils are @ 160°F (71°C) and lye solution @ 140°F (60°C). Stir by hand, then SB to hard trace 10-15 minutes (on & off), over low heat 160°F (71°C). (according to Catherine Failor, author.) You can then use whatever method you're most comfortable with to process the paste to saponification.

There isn't enough information in your post to verify if the amount of the KOH is correct. That being said, I just thought of a remedy that might work for you. I know a few soapers who put all their water (lye solution & dilution water) in at the beginning and cook it until it's done, adding water as needed along the way. This may take days -- off heat overnight.

Figure the amount of water you need for the lye solution and for the Dilution Phase (40% soap to 60% water for LS high in coconut oil). If you don't know the weight of your paste, you can use SoapCalc to approximate what it should be. Then add the extra water to the batch and cook range top over low heat.

HTH

 

[Kiti Williams]

[/QUOTE]
Then I cooled the paste, drained away the oil and rinse the hardened paste before diluting. But it didn't help. When I pour in hot water for dilution it turned to milky, which is a telltale sign of separated layered end product from my experience.

Can someone please tell me what's wrong with it? I am so frustrated as I used to make perfect liquid body wash with the above oils (different ratio of oil ofcoz) I really don't know what went wrong.[/QUOTE]

I cooked up a batch of soap paste on Friday and stage 1 is "applesauce", cover and let sit for 10 min, SB to "Mashed potato" stage. Cover and place in a 170 degree oven for 3 hours, 3rd and final stage is "Vaseline" - yes, it looked just like it too. It sounds like you got to the applesauce stage and stopped. HTH

 

[Steph0104]

Then I cooled the paste, drained away the oil and rinse the hardened paste before diluting. But it didn't help. When I pour in hot water for dilution it turned to milky, which is a telltale sign of separated layered end product from my experience.

Can someone please tell me what's wrong with it? I am so frustrated as I used to make perfect liquid body wash with the above oils (different ratio of oil ofcoz) I really don't know what went wrong.[/QUOTE]

I cooked up a batch of soap paste on Friday and stage 1 is "applesauce", cover and let sit for 10 min, SB to "Mashed potato" stage. Cover and place in a 170 degree oven for 3 hours, 3rd and final stage is "Vaseline" - yes, it looked just like it too. It sounds like you got to the applesauce stage and stopped. HTH[/QUOTE]


Thanks for your reply, so you mean I didn't stick blend for long enough until it reached the mashed potato stage?

 

[Steph0104]

That's the problem... not enough water to last through the cook. Generally, use 3:1 water:lye. Sometimes 2:1 but keep an eye on it. If it starts to bloat up, stir it down and quickly move it to the sink OR have cold water at the ready equal to the difference between 3:1 and 2:1
View attachment 42681

ETA: I bring my paste to trace and stop there. Combine when oils are @ 160°F (71°C) and lye solution @ 140°F (60°C). Stir by hand, then SB to hard trace 10-15 minutes (on & off), over low heat 160°F (71°C). (according to Catherine Failor, author.) You can then use whatever method you're most comfortable with to process the paste to saponification.

There isn't enough information in your post to verify if the amount of the KOH is correct. That being said, I just thought of a remedy that might work for you. I know a few soapers who put all their water (lye solution & dilution water) in at the beginning and cook it until it's done, adding water as needed along the way. This may take days -- off heat overnight.

Figure the amount of water you need for the lye solution and for the Dilution Phase (40% soap to 60% water for LS high in coconut oil). If you don't know the weight of your paste, you can use SoapCalc to approximate what it should be. Then add the extra water to the batch and cook range top over low heat.

HTH

I see! Thanks a lot, I thought using water discount in liquid soap would reduce time to bring it to trace. I am gonna try it again today and let everyone knows how it goes.

 

[Steph0104]

I'm not quite sure why you're thinking that separation is a sign of failure. To be honest, ricing and separation are pretty normal for liquid soap making. Just mix the liquid back into the rest of the soap and keep going.

The temperature difference between the lye solution and the fat makes no difference. Once the ingredients are mixed together, that temp difference disappears. Ricing (applesauce texture) in liquid soap is pretty common. Just mix the ricing back together and keep going.

How do you know the liquid is oil? Just guessing? If so, please be aware the liquid is just as likely to be soap as fat. Just mix the liquid back into the rest of the soap and keep going.

Even after the paste is fully saponified, it can sometimes separate a bit. Again, the answer is just to mix the liquid back into the rest of the paste. It will be fine.

Honestly, everything you're describing is pretty typical for liquid soap making. You're getting frustrated over normal stuff and giving up too quickly.

Diluted soap can be milky for many reasons, not just that the soap is not fully saponified. The zap test is the better way to learn if there is still unreacted alkali. If the soap zaps, then it needs to saponify longer, although I highly doubt after 3.5 hours of cooking, however, that the soap is not fully saponified.

If the soap does not zap and is milky, then the soap is fully saponified and there's something else going on. Did you make the soap or dilute the soap with distilled or deionized water or tap/drinking water? I see you used 0% superfat for the recipe, but did you also account for the purity of the actual KOH you're using?

Hi DeeAnna, thanks for your reply.
May be the word "failure" isn't accurate, and for separation, I am referring to the end product. So normally my successful LS is a bottle of brown/amber liquid, I am usually able to thicken it with FO or salt solution when it's high in oleic acid. But now my bottle of LS separated into 2 layers, thick ivory creamy liquid on top, and clear amber liquid at the bottom. Even when I shake it up, it will go back to 2 layers after a while. I also can't thicken it although it still has bubble and I can still use it for cleaning.

Also, when I keep mixing the oil back into the translucent gel, it looks incorporated for a sec then the oil seeps out again after few mins.

I think the liquid is oil because I dropped the liquid onto a paper, the paper becomes half tranlucent rather wet as if you pour water onto it. Also when I put a scoop of the paste into tap water for clarity test, a layer of oil floated on top.

 

[DeeAnna]

Oh. I totally thought you were talking about the issues you were having when making the paste, not what the soap is like after dilution.

I suspect this separation problem will never go away. There is too much superfat for the soap to absorb -- it needs to be a real superfat of around 3% or less.

I know you said you set your superfat at zero, but I suspect you didn't also correct for the KOH purity. Most soap recipe calculators assume the purity is 100% unless you tell it otherwise. KOH purity can be as low as 85%. The difference between 100% and the actual superfat is what I call the "hidden" superfat.

An example -- If your KOH happens to be 85% pure, your superfat setting is 0%, and you make no correction for the KOH purity, then the total superfat in your soap will be around 15%. That's much too much.​

Or it's possible you made a measurement error.

 

[Kiti Williams]

[QUOTE="Steph0104,

I cooked up a batch of soap paste on Friday and stage 1 is "applesauce", cover and let sit for 10 min, SB to "Mashed potato" stage. Cover and place in a 170 degree oven for 3 hours, 3rd and final stage is "Vaseline" - yes, it looked just like it too. It sounds like you got to the applesauce stage and stopped. HTH[/QUOTE]


Thanks for your reply, so you mean I didn't stick blend for long enough until it reached the mashed potato stage?[/QUOTE]

It may have needed to cook a wee bit more. My first SBing did not really have the applesauce look, so I warmed it up and then let it sit for 10 more min. This time it did look like applesauce, so I blended and let it sit for the next 10 min interval. Got the Mashed potato look and then set it to keep warm in the oven for 3 hours. My LS is a pearly look , but very thick and flowing. A wee bit like honey, when you drizzle it. Sometimes you just have to let a slow working paste do it's thing. HP is way more fiddly than CP for me.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I see! Thanks a lot, I thought using water discount in liquid soap would reduce time to bring it to trace.

I hear ya. Actually, KOH needs the oxygen supplied by the water to do its thing. If there's not enough water it will misbehave. BTW, the same is true of dilution water. Just recently, I used a crockpot to cook a batch of LS with the water:KOH ratio of 2:1 and it gave me trouble. I made a second batch at 3:1 and it came to hard trace fairly quickly and easily.

Good luck on your next batch!