Newbie/Lurker Lye questions

[ParliamentofRooks]

I've been making soap for about 6-8 months and this is the first time I've really had a screwed up. I was making two batches this weekend, one seems fine, and one is so lye-heavy it crumbled.

Backstory: I did two 3lb batches. The first was a body bar sented with BB Passionfruit Rose. The second was a shaving soap scented with BB Blackberry Sage. Ran both batches through the lye calculator. I added the lye amounts and the water amounts for each batch together and made one batch of lye (mistake #1?). I have two crockpots so I measured the oils separately for each batch.

Once melted I measured the lye from the pitcher into a separate container by weight, and added it to the first batch--the body bar batch--traced it, added the FO, and poured it. No color was added. This batch seems good except when I cut it, I have some small irregular bulls-eye type rings in the bars. They are hard to discribe, but they are almost like the outline of air bubbles, but the soap seems consistent on either side of the outline. I have no liquid seepage, the bar doesn't zap after 48 hours, texture (other than the rings) is uniform. So my question is whether this is just cosmetic? Caused by the fragrance oil? Just one of those unknown "things" that happens in a batch?

After batch one was complete, I moved to batch two. Added the remaining amount of lye I had on hand, Added two tablespoons of bentonite clay at trace and colored 8 oz with two teaspoons of nettle leaf and the remainder with two tablespoons Charcoal. This still zaps like crazy and totally crumbled when I tried to cut it. I might try to rebatch it, but I don't know that it's going to be something worth giving to people.

I'm assuming my major screw up is that I should have measured lye and water for each batch separately? I've done multiple batches like this before and not had issues, but this is the first thing that came to mind.

I also want to make sure the other batch doesn't need any more TLC than usual.

TIA

 

[chicklet]

I think you could be right that the error was in mixing the lye for 2 batches at once then splitting it, but could you share your recipes? That would help pinpoint the problem with the zapping batch. The first one with the rings - weird, probably cosmetic, but again, recipes might help someone figure things out. When you split the lye/liquid mix, did you weigh the amount that went into each batch?

And welcome to the forum.

 

[Moody Glenn]

Hi and welcome to the forum! Never combine lye solutions for two or more different batches or recipes. Each recipe has different saponification values for all the oils and fats used in it. Each recipe will have a different amount of lye and of water associated with that particular recipe. Depending upon how much you make of each recipe a corresponding amount of lye solution will be needed only for that particular recipe. My head is starting to spin now. Another member of the forum will be much better at clarifying what I have just typed. :smile:

At first, try to make only a one pound recipe. Make sure to use SoapCalc to make the recipe, weight the oils and fats then combine the exact amount of lye solution only for that recipe. Once you get the hang of this you can then make your recipe larger. Eventually you can go into the advance method of masterbatching. That's a entirely different animal.

As for your first batch you came out very lucky to have no zap since you had combined all your different lye mixes.

 

[chicklet]

Just re-read your post and saw that you did weigh the lye/water for the first batch. Hmm.... the mystery deepens. If you weighed everything correctly when you mixed up the lye and water, then you weighed the amount you put into your first batch, the amount left *should* have been the correct amount for the second batch, right?

Hmmm...

 

[jean1C]

Here is the thing though....the lye/water ratio may have been different for both batches. So if that is the case the second batch may have been too lye heavy for the oils, or the other way around. Combining the lye water for a double batch is fine ( Ithink) as long as the recipes are the same, but with the different oils the values have to be different and when you combine the two you are just getting an average. The best example I can give is that if I were making a 3 # body bar and a 3 # shaving soap, I would not use the same amount of lye water, or the same amount of lye:water for each batch.

The bull's eye thing is interesting...Did you use any other additives? Is it a white bull's eye or a darker bull's eye? Maybe it could just be a jell issue around something that wasn't quite dissolved or maybe it will disappear in time?

 

[ParliamentofRooks]

My Body bar is Soap Queen's Lots of Lather recipe.

Castor 4%
Coconut 32%
Olive 32%
Palm 32%

For this batch I use 52 oz oils, 19.8 oz water, 7.4 oz lye

For my Shaving soap I use

Castor 7.4%
Coconut 30.0%
Olive 40.1%
Palm 22.4%

For this batch I use 34 oz oils, 12.9 oz water, 4.9 oz lye

I made my lye solution with 19.8 oz +12.9 oz water for a total of 32.7 oz water, and 7.4 oz + 4.9 oz lye for a total of 12.3 oz lye... so the actual mix is 12.3 oz lye to 32.7 oz water.

When I had to split the lye for each batch I weighed and poured 19.8 oz for the body bar batch in a separate container and added it to the crockpot with the body bar mix (at one end of the table) and did that batch, then added the lye to the shaving bar batch (at the other end of the table) and made it.

All the measurements were from the soapcalc.net soap calculator.

ETA: The lye: water ratio for each individual batch is 38%... not sure if the lye the way I added everything together is or not, which would explain things if it wasn't...

The bulleye issue could be from the gel--it gelled almost completely and very quickly (like 5 minutes after I molded it.) The body bar had no additives except 1.5 oz BB FO. There doesn't seem to be any difference in color or consistency between the inside of the bulls-eye type areas and the outside (which makes me pretty confident it's not lye, plus that batch doesn't zap), but the line is a slightly lighter/whiter color then either the inside or outside.

 

[chicklet]

But for your first batch it called for 19.8 oz water PLUS 7.4 oz lye (total weight 30 oz). You only used 19.8 oz. so your second batch has 7.4 oz too much lye. No wonder it crumbled!

 

[jean1C]

Parliament,
What you are saying makes sense...both ratios are about 38%...so logically it should work.

I have used Soap Queen's lots of lather recipe without problem, as you have. Wonder if it is a problem with the shaving soap recipe?

 

[ParliamentofRooks]

Thanks chicklet. I apparently wasn't taking into account that lye dissolved in water will change the weight of the water (If I read you correctly?) If this is the case why aren't there problems with my first batch? I would think if I should have weight out 30 oz instead of the 19.8 that I did, wouldn't it be spongy? It's not at all--perfect consistency compared to when I make the same recipe as a solo batch.

At any rate, my take away is: don't try to be TOO smart... more than one batch, more than one lye pitcher, and clearly mark which is for which!

 

[jean1C]

I had to go back and reread your original post a few times to try and figure out where you went wrong. There are tons of people on this forum who are way more knowledgable than I am. However, considering your description of the bullseye rings and the fact that your second batch crumbled. I am wondering if your lye was completely dissolved.
Sometimes when I am stirring my lye, I get a participate on the top. Chemically speaking, it is either something that the NaOH is binding to, or there is not enough H2O for the NaOH to break its bonds. I just skim the top and discard it. If you had some solid lye still in the water it could account for the lye heaviness you are describing. I think it could even account for your bull's eyes in your first soap. Maybe do a "zap' test on the bull's eye?

 

[chicklet]

Okay now I'm thinking it wouldn't be 7.4 oz of extra lye in the 2nd batch, it would be some amount in proportion to your original measurements - a combination of lye and water that equals 7.4 oz. Which would mean your first batch wasn't missing quite as much lye as I first thought. Have you cut the first batch? Were the bars soft at all? Seems like it would be softer than usual ... but I may be way off base in my thinking.

 

[newbie]

Chicklet is right that you added too little lye (although not 7.4 ounces of lye) to the first batch and too much to the last. The first batch is just highly superfatted and people have superfatted up to 20 % in some cases- doesn't make the bars bad.

You added 5.4 ounces of lye to batch #1

You added 6.9 ounces of lye to batch #2, so if you want to fix batch #2, you will have to weigh out how much oil and which types of oil you want to add to saponify 2 ounces of lye (you were supposed to add 4.9 ounces but added 6.9 ounces) and rebatch. And I would add a little more than what you calculate, just to be safe- a little higher superfat than you originally planned won't hurt and will just give you a margin of safety.

Post a pic of your first batch! We would like to see your rings. And welcome to the forum!

 

[ParliamentofRooks]

Been a busy week and just got back to this. Thanks for all the info. Yesterday, I went and bought a second lye pitcher.

Newbie--Thanks for the info on the rebatch, I'd been wondering how to figure that out. I'll see if I can get a good pic of the rings and post them. If you want to see any of my other stuff you can check me out at www.facebook.com/SkinCandySoapworks.

 

[ParliamentofRooks]

Ok... hope this comes out. You'll see the that there are white flecks, but you should also be able to see a ring like area with an ever-so-slightly darker center.

 

[ParliamentofRooks]

Chicklet-- The above pic is from the first batch. Not too soft, though I have decided that i distinctly DISLIKE the FO I used. I'm very glad I chose it to be a "limited edition" batch! The only issue I have is the weird rings that I posted above (the one in the pic is more eye-shaped than bulls-eye shaped).